Hold 'Em or Fold 'Em (part 1)

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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Also, in your QQ's hand, if you cant trust your opponent enough to fold on the river, then you probably shouldve check/called the turn.


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Please elaborate.

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The turn is a classic WA/WB situation. Against someone I cant safely bet/fold I prefer check/calling the turn and river. A counter-argument to this idea is "well if you cant safely bet/fold then why not just bet/call the turn and river?" Against an aggressive retard I certainly would bet/call the turn and river. But against someone I simply dont trust I prefer getting to the showdown cheaply and seeing who wins. This check/call line has many advantages. Here are a few:

1) You avoid getting raised on the turn and calling down only to be shown a better hand.

2) You avoid gettting raised on the turn and folding the winner.

3) Becuz many players online love to bet when checked to, many players will bet any hand they intended to call with, so checking the turn doesnt lose value against lesser hands against many player types.

4) You will sometimes induce a hand to bet that wouldve folded to a turn bet. This is a great event.

5) You will sometimes induce a hand that wouldve folded the turn or river to bluff both streets. This is a wonderful event.

6) Sometimes a hand that wouldve folded to your turn bet will check/behind but hit enough on the river to call your bet. This is also a great event.

Now some people may say that check/calling the turn will often make our hand very transparent against good/decent players but I table select very well so this isnt a problem for me.

[27offsooot]

Sorry to bash you, but u're giving out poor advice in this thread.
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The turn is a classic WA/WB situation.

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No it's not, there are str8 possibilities, flush possibilities. And what exactly is classic WA/ WB anyway? Is there a number of outs that constitutes a threshold for this categorization?

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Against someone I cant safely bet/fold I prefer check/calling the turn and river. A counter-argument to this idea is "well if you cant safely bet/fold then why not just bet/call the turn and river?"

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An even better counter-argument is, "I like to get value out of my hands, so I typically bet them."

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Against an aggressive retard I certainly would bet/call the turn and river. But against someone I simply dont trust I prefer getting to the showdown cheaply and seeing who wins. This check/call line has many advantages. Here are a few:


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So, with a complete lack of reads, why do you simply distrust villain?

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1) You avoid getting raised on the turn and calling down only to be shown a better hand.

2) You avoid gettting raised on the turn and folding the winner.

3) Becuz many players online love to bet when checked to, many players will bet any hand they intended to call with, so checking the turn doesnt lose value against lesser hands against many player types.

4) You will sometimes induce a hand to bet that wouldve folded to a turn bet. This is a great event.

5) You will sometimes induce a hand that wouldve folded the turn or river to bluff both streets. This is a wonderful event.

6) Sometimes a hand that wouldve folded to your turn bet will check/behind but hit enough on the river to call your bet. This is also a great event.


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Which chapter in HPFAP was this again? In case somebody on this forum hasn't read that book, it would be helpful. The villain cold-called PF (this typically indicates passivity barring a specific read), do we really think this player is going to betting turns with draws and such that would call a turn bet? What happens when he would've called the turn with a GS, but now checks behind? How about when he would've called with his 22, but now checks behind?

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Now some people may say that check/calling the turn will often make our hand very transparent against good/decent players but I table select very well so this isnt a problem for me.

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I'm glad u can always play against poor competition. My friend destroys the play money tables as well.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

"Sorry to bash you, but u're giving out poor advice in this thread."

27, your rebuttal post baffles me. I dont know where to start. First of all, i dont give out poor advice, its just not my style. So if i write something that appears poor it is up to you to figure out whats going on.

"And what exactly is classic WA/ WB anyway?"

I realize theres a flush draw on the flop and some straight draws. Given that the villain coldcalled preflop and called that flop his most likely hands in my eyes is going to be Ax. So once the hero is called on the flop his hand instantly loses much of its value. Playing this marginal hand as a WA/WB situation will usually be the prudent choice against someone you distrust or someone you have no read on.

"So, with a complete lack of reads, why do you simply distrust villain?"

I dont trust anyone online until I have a read, but to make things clear,I didnt say I distrusted villain. When the OP was wondering what he should do on the river vs the villain's raise I surmised that the OP may not trust the villain since he was viewing the river as a tough decision. Naturally against someone we trust there will be no tough decisions on the river. If this is the case I do advocate check/calling the turn.

"An even better counter-argument is, "I like to get value out of my hands, so I typically bet them."

This alarms me. Youre are assuming that betting your hand is the best way to get value out of your hand. There are so many situations online where this just isnt true. Checking and calling should be a huge play in your playbook online becuz against many aggressive players playing passively will be the path to valuetown.

"I'm glad u can always play against poor competition. My friend destroys the play money tables as well."

Yes I play against poor competition. Poker is my only source of income. I'm not in this business for style points or glory. I'm just trying to pay my bills and have fun in the process.

27, based on all your points, it appears to me that you probably dont play online very much. Are you a live player? Becuz when I play live im always surrounded by straight foward players who call with more hands than they bet with and against this lineup it is rarely correct to check and call with any made hand. Most of the time the only way to get max value from your hand is to bet it. Online however is a different animal, and I would even go as far as to say that the majority of online players bet with more hands then they call with which means many of their bets are probably mistakes. The best way to take advantage of these kind of mistakes is to check and call when you have a marginal made hand oop that may or may not be best that cant handle much pressure. Not only will you save money when youre trailing and never get outplayed when you have the best hand but you also end up making the maximum against those aggressive bettors who love to pray on weakness.

[Kwaz]

ILP, I'd appreciate if you posted in the 'unknown standard' post.