(razz) Fold on 5th

[AggressiveCall]

Hello all. I've been reading posts on here for a bit, been very interesting and helpful. Was going through my hand histories for razz, and came across this strange one, was hoping for some input.

Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.40 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.70 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (5.70 BB - $2.85)

[kerze]

Collusion FTW. That was my first thought. But based on the action on 4th I don't think there is any collusion.

Based on the action i suspect K has 34, 35, or 45 in the whole. On 3rd he calls two players after a completon and on 5th he calls behind a bet and a call against two players with strong boards. Then on 5th he raises a bet an opponent with 468 up.

Seat 4, I'm not overly concerned about. The check/call on 4th indicates to me that they are weak - i.e they called 3rd with one hidden high card or they paired up on 4th. The bet on 5th seems like an attempt to take advantage of our J and is trying to buy the pot. However, he could call behind a call by us as there would be 8.70BB in the pot and he only had to call 1BB - but at this point he would be drawing to an 8 vs Seat 5's presumed draw to a 5 and our likely draw to a 7 (as we completed with 236 behind on 3rd) and he is probably about 20% to win the pot.

There is 6.7BB in the pot and we have to call 2BB so we are getting 3.5:1 on our money but we are only about a 1.1:1 dog if we get it heads up against Seat 5 assigning the ranges above. It gets more complex if we think that Seat 4 will stick around (which he probably should unless he has really butcher up by double pairing or having one high card and a 4 in the hole) but even then we are probably a 1.8:1 or 1.9:1 dog against the field.

So I think its a call but if Seat 4 raises behind us then I think its a fold because to me that does indicate that he has a made 8 and may actually be colluding with Seat 5.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]

5th Street - (3.70 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (5.70 BB - $2.85)

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like collusion, but I swear I've played this exact hand as the bring-in. Except, I almost never call 3rd with a big brick unless it's one opponent. I have done it by accident. But if I were Seat 5 and had A234 here, I'd assume Seat 4 paired 4th and raise to get the Jack out, get some money in, and be heads up.

But I am not known around here as a sensible player. Still, I've won more than one hand like this.

[RustyBrooks]

I don't think it's a bad raise on Seat 5's part even if he doesn't think seat 4 is paired most of the time (assuming he has a234, a235, a345). He's even money against an 86 and if seat 4 is paired *some* of the time, even better, and if the 7 draw folds, even better.

[AggressiveCall]

Thanks everyone for the help, makes a lot more sense now. I agree, Seat 5's play makes sense, and is almost certainly a wheel draw.

I think what had confused me was I had been missing the check-call by Seat 5, so I was thinking he had something like a made 8 or 9, in which case I think fold is correct, then couldn't figure out what was up with him folding.

So, with Seat 4's check on 4th, we're figuring he's got a pair or high card, in which case I should probably call?

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks everyone for the help, makes a lot more sense now. I agree, Seat 5's play makes sense, and is almost certainly a wheel draw.

I think what had confused me was I had been missing the check-call by Seat 5, so I was thinking he had something like a made 8 or 9, in which case I think fold is correct, then couldn't figure out what was up with him folding.

So, with Seat 4's check on 4th, we're figuring he's got a pair or high card, in which case I should probably call?

[/ QUOTE ]
Even on the outside chance seat 4 has a rough 8 made you're still not dead. He has shown no sign he started with a good hand tho, or liked his hand much on 4th, and may simply be betting 5th because you bricked, not thinking seat 5 would raise him (correctly). You have a very good argument for calling here.

[chucky]

This does look very odd, but I agree with the consensus, call on 5th street. You have plenty of outs.

[*TT*]

showing us seat 4's action kills the ability of most of us to give you objective advice on 5th street, please do not post the results in the future.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
showing us seat 4's action kills the ability of most of us to give you objective advice on 5th street, please do not post the results in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please do not include me in the category of "most of us." My advice disregarded seat 4's second and most unexpected action. Still, slap on the wrist for Agg for posting anything that might make people "results oriented."

[AggressiveCall]

[ QUOTE ]
showing us seat 4's action kills the ability of most of us to give you objective advice on 5th street, please do not post the results in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry about that, but part of what I was wondering about was why that fold was there. I had put Seat 4 on made 8, which as has been discussed was probably not correct, so was curious what people thought the fold meant, as well as how I should have played it.

On the plus side, got it mostly right on my other post, left off showdown, but accidentally left in the other showdown action after my bet.