5CD: relative worth...big pair vs small 2pr?

[Big Limpin]

I'm afraid i dont have much to seed this thread with; I post more as a call for discussion. The question is, in what situations is a small 2pr more pwerful than one large pair, and vice versa? My suspicion is that this won't be static, but i'm really having trouble getting my head around this. Help!

When i first begin my draw foray (its been only one month!), i began with the naive assumption that the value of the hands was pretty much a straight line...that is, first come the pairs, then ranking above AA comes 3322 and so on. Experience now seems to show theres a disconnect in there. If we were playing a preverted form of "draw" where there was no draw...we just got dealt 5 cards, bet, and then showdown, then 2233>AA. However, with the draw, it seems apparent the big pairs are worth more, owing to better prospects of improvement, leading to a better average showdown worth. But how to quantify this?

For example, lets say i open-raise from button, and only the BB calls. Lets say he has decent one-pair. If i hold an overpair, i'm ~3.25:1 fav...but if i have 2pr, smaller than his pair, i'm only ~2.75:1 fav.
Then again, lets say he has called me with a very small 2pr himself. Now, MY (slightly less small) 2pr is a huge favorite, while my AA is a big dog.
And yet again, lets say he calls, now with a very GOOD 2pr. OK, now my (smaller) 2pr is the massive dog, while my AA has a fighting chance.

Now another situation. EP villain open-raises. His range is TT+. If i'm going to call him, which is more valuable to me, AA or 8822?

Do you see how i am getting mind-[censored] by this?

And now heres the other thing, that is a boon FOR the 2prs...is utility for how they play in the actual betting. If i call a raise, and draw 3, its pretty obvious to even the dimmest villain that i hold AA, maybe KK. Whereas if i can draw just 1, i have the utility of him having no idea where i am. I could have anywhere from 2233 to AAA, even a draw in his mind. So thats one area where the small 2pr have more value than the big 1 pr. How much is that worth in the real world, i'm not experienced enough to know yet.

So this is what i ask for, is to help me get some kind of bearing on the overlap of the big pairs to the smaller 2prs...for all kinds of differnt situations. Any help is appreciated. I need help about how to think about this stuff.

Thanks,
Limpin'

[Al Mirpuri]

It has long been a draw poker adage that the playing of two pairs is what separates the experts from the rest. However, I am not a draw expert so cannot give you what you want to know but someone will...

[Tom Bayes]

In general, the fewer players involved in the pot, the more I'd prefer the two small pair and the more players in the pot the more I'd prefer the high one pair. I'd open either hand for a raise and raise against limpers to try to limit the field. I hate calling raises with two small pair in most circumstances (especially in PL/NL) because you'll probably have another uncomfortable decision to make. Calling smallish raises with AA in position is OK against the right opponent, although a fold isn't horrible either.

Two small pair is usually the best hand pre-swap, but it suffers from the fact that it is difficult to improve and it's a huge underdog when it is behind (this is why calling pre-swap raises with two small pair is sucky poker). Against a single opponent, you can use two small pair as a check-down hand and a bluff-catcher hand (although there are many draw players who NEVER bluff). You can also bluff with it against players who can lay down their own bigger 2 pair (WARNING: I haven't seen many of these players playing at PokerStars).

Against several opponents, you are pretty much stuck praying you can show it down and have it hold unless you hit your 4-outer full house. It's easier to improve AA to something you'll be able to bet and/or call with.

I'll try to make a rough analogy to holdem poker. Two small pair play sort of like a hand like AK/AQ on a ragged low flop-probably the best hand against a single opponent but unlikely to be good against many. In a multi-way pot, a big pair in draw is like a medium/low pocket in holdem-a hand that you either improve to a powerful hand or something that is easy to get away from.

However, I'd usually still raise with AA against limpers in draw. Draw is much easier to play against one opponent than four.

[Big Limpin]

Tom,
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
thats just what i was looking for, and the hold'em analogies really help.
i'll probably want to go further with this, but i need some sleep first. my mind's fuzzy right now, i just re-read my OP...its kind of schitzo [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
check back tomorrow? i'll surely have some more questions.

[Murakawa]

2 small pair like hold em' 55
2 medium-big pair like hold em' 10 10
AA like KQs in hold em;

Wait no, but you get the idea.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
2 small pair like hold em' 55
2 medium-big pair like hold em' 10 10
AA like KQs in hold em;

Wait no, but you get the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Respectfully disagree on one point: AA more like AKo in Hold'em. Few callers and it could win unimproved, many callers and it needs to improve.

[Murakawa]

[ QUOTE ]


Respectfully disagree on one point: AA more like AKo in Hold'em. Few callers and it could win unimproved, many callers and it needs to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in the way that you say. But you wouldn't call an all in with AAxxx in draw unless it was endgame, and you wouldn't reraise unless you felt out a weak opponent. You would do both with AK in hold em'.

Then again, that's like apples and kumquats

[TheOneWizard]

I don't have much serious draw experience, but I do know that in Mike Caro's original Super System chapter he emphasizes again and again that draw is "A game of aces." So starting with a pair of aces or a big pair with an ace kicker is often better than two small pair.

[Big Limpin]

that is referring to draw with a joker, which can be used as an ace

[Big Limpin]

yeah tom,
no further questions. thanks again for your post, it was very helpful [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]