TPTK in position vs flush board

[HermannTL]

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (7 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero...

MP1 seems LAG, 59/10.3/2.5, I noted a hand with 88 where he 3-bet &amp; called cap preflop, then called 553 flop. &lt;30 hands

SB: only 2nd hand at the table, never saw before.

BB: 41/0/0.5 and generally fishy over about 30 hands.

I don't know these players well so I'm unsure of a default play in a typical game at this level. I'm very inclined to raise to try to drive out flush draws (which sometimes works at .10/.20) but I can't protect my hand giving 13.5:1 to 9-outers and someone might already have a flush. I figure the odds are good that I have the best hand right now but that could easily change.

[I'm sure this situation has been discussed to death but I didn't find it just now.]

[LateFlag]

Against a typical unknown, I would go ahead and raise the flop for value. I would rather wait and raise a non-club turn, but lots of villains suddenly lose their courage after they get called in 2-3 spots on the flop, and it would be a small disaster if I smooth-called the flop and villain then checked the turn to me.

Against this particular villain, though, I'm not worried about having the turn checked to me, so I'll adopt the "call the flop, raise a non-club turn" line.

[LateFlag]

BTW, this hand isn't about "driving out" flush draws, although frequently you will in fact be able to fold out small clubs. The point of this hand is that people with big-ish clubs will pay off all flop and turn raises, so you want to get value for your hand. This is really a value-betting exercise, not a hand-protection exercise.

[LukeSLTS]

I agree with LateFlag that the flop is the better place for the raise here. Not only is there the chance that the action but by showing aggression now you make it easier to play on the turn.

[B_ing]

* grunch *

I dont think a raise will make a FD or even Ax fold at this level. I think it would be correct to try to see the river as cheap as possible so try to call down and pray no four Flush hits. Be Prepared to fold if it does or someone raises the turn (often seen with a flopped flush).

[Fantam]

I would call the flop bet with the intention of raising a non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn.

You are also vulnerable against a possible gut-shot draw on the flop, but I would still prefer to wait until the turn to raise (a safe card) as the one card flush draw would be my main consideration.

[neurotiq]

Raise it to charge the flush drawers. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[LukeSLTS]

[ QUOTE ]
* grunch *

I dont think a raise will make a FD or even Ax fold at this level. I think it would be correct to try to see the river as cheap as possible so try to call down and pray no four Flush hits. Be Prepared to fold if it does or someone raises the turn (often seen with a flopped flush).

[/ QUOTE ]

This whole line of thinking bothers me. We are ahead on the flop the majority of the time here. Of course decent flush draws aren't going to fold, and there a lot of players that will also call down with weak aces unless a four flush hits. It is for these exact reasons that we raise and don't try to get to the river cheaply. Charge these flush draws and three out draws as much as you can.

[Lanzalot]

The pot is too big to play passively and you can't let some screwy bet freeze you up. Raising is right because you get might get out the guy who has Tx9c or a gutshot wheel that might include a club or a Broadway draw that might not. You won't get the K or Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out, but raising at least charges them.

[KitCloudkicker]

i raise the flop. get out the gutshots and two pair draws. if the pot was smaller and less people were in i probably would use a more passive line until the big streets.

if the pot was somehow capped preflop, i would wait for the turn to raise. however, becuase it was only 2 bet, you have the opportunity to make people draw incorrectly right now. take it.

finally i should add that there is a big difference between a monotone ATx flop and a monotone A8x flop. make sure you see why. in the latter you can probably wait until the turn.