[100nl] KK, flop top set, but FD gets there on turn...

[jetsetboy]

On what range do you put him to justify this turn bet ? He doesn't have TP much. Unless he is a huge calling station I think his calling range on the turn would be something like TPTK+NFD, a set, KJ, a flush. If he is good enough he will c/rAI with his flush quite often and u will have to fold. He might also protect his hand (like KJ or a set) c/rai and u can make a huge mistake folding. Furthermore by checking the turn behind you will induce a bluff and can call a non heart river. If river is a heart and he bets u can safely folds I think. If river is a non heart non pairing card u can call a PSB on the river. If river is a pairing card then u can push if he bets or bets if he check. By checking the turn u get a free card and allow him to make a huge mistake while when betting the turn u can put yourself facing a very tough decision (if he c/r or c/c and push a blank river).

[pattay]

[ QUOTE ]
On what range do you put him to justify this turn bet ? He doesn't have TP much. Unless he is a huge calling station I think his calling range on the turn would be something like TPTK+NFD, a set, KJ, a flush. If he is good enough he will c/rAI with his flush quite often and u will have to fold. He might also protect his hand (like KJ or a set) c/rai and u can make a huge mistake folding. Furthermore by checking the turn behind you will induce a bluff and can call a non heart river. If river is a heart and he bets u can safely folds I think. If river is a non heart non pairing card u can call a PSB on the river. If river is a pairing card then u can push if he bets or bets if he check. By checking the turn u get a free card and allow him to make a huge mistake while when betting the turn u can put yourself facing a very tough decision (if he c/r or c/c and push a blank river).

[/ QUOTE ]

well the obvious ones are hands like 444, 555, AK, and KQ. since hes a VP$IP of 36, coupled with the fact that grinding's raises are pretty weak-like, i think we can also throw in some KJ and KT. now i dont know how the villain plays postflop, but if he floats some, he could def be floating with hands like AQ and AJ, and if he has the Ah, that fits his turn play. throw in a badly played JJ or QQ, and i think his range can be fairly large. i dont consider myself a huge calling station, and i can float with a mid-pair or ace high here on the flop hoping to take it down on the turn against some players. if hes going to CRAI on the turn, then you can fold there (its iffy for me), you still have a few outs for your fh anyway. by checking the turn, you give him heart outs, as in even if he doesnt have one, you still lose value bc you have to play your hand so weak if the fourth heart comes out. i think what it comes down to is i give him a much wider range than you do, maybe because im getting so used to nl200, maybe bc my image is different, whatever

[jetsetboy]

First : IP and top set I'm checking (behind). I would agree with you if we had 55/44/JJ. I also think that floating here oop after a c/c preflop with pp and hands like AQ/AJ utg is awfull and hope u don't do that too often. Don't try to impress me with NL200 stuffs or what u want I'm also a NL200 player.


Okay I don't want to spend the night on this one, even if I think it would be a good thing to discuss this subject extensively. I already spent about 1 hour to find the former "big" thread on this subject. I'm not 100% sure if this still up to date (games have change since october 06). What I feel about this subject is that u need to be facing a really agro vilain/table to make a bet here more Ev than a check and I would be surprised to learn that FR games right now are more agro than NL200-NL1000 6m games 1 year ago. Furthermore vilain is not an agro player.

Links that u should read :
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...164#Post7590064

KK grimstarr

orange KK hand

[Grinding2Ecstasy]

thanks for the links JSB gonna check them out. I considered checking the turn, but arent you A - shorting yourself value from lesser hand that is trying to showdown, B - inducing an instapuke if fourth heart gets there?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
First : IP and top set I'm checking (behind). I would agree with you if we had 55/44/JJ. I also think that floating here oop after a c/c preflop with pp and hands like AQ/AJ utg is awfull and hope u don't do that too often. Don't try to impress me with NL200 stuffs or what u want I'm also a NL200 player.


Okay I don't want to spend the night on this one, even if I think it would be a good thing to discuss this subject extensively. I already spent about 1 hour to find the former "big" thread on this subject. I'm not 100% sure if this still up to date (games have change since october 06). What I feel about this subject is that u need to be facing a really agro vilain/table to make a bet here more Ev than a check and I would be surprised to learn that FR games right now are more agro than NL200-NL1000 6m games 1 year ago. Furthermore vilain is not an agro player.

Links that u should read :
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...164#Post7590064

KK grimstarr

orange KK hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Thx a lot for the links here JetSet. I'm going to read them here soon; however, I'm wondering what you do if you're oop here. Let's say you bet $9 on the flop here, he calls and the turn is the same.

Now what?

[Effen]

Checking that turn makes me PUKE because a 4th heart always comes on the river. But I think I fold to that river PSB bc its a nuts/air thing there and if it's air, there's cheaper ways of pushing you off.

[jetsetboy]

Qtip, I'm leading/calling quite often (and sometimes c/rai). That might be because I'm playing 6m since a month so maybe another line is better in fr oop.

[jetsetboy]

This thread dealt with the oop situation and is also interesting : http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...106#Post7766109

[QTip]

Thx again.

[QTip]

hm. In that last thread, the majority want to bet more on the turn to make the all in call easier...course, stack size plays a huge roll here.