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#1
12-01-2007, 01:13 AM
 Hunter898 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3
Burning Cards On-line

Hello all,

This is my first post and I have an interest in a difference between virtual and casino play, specifically burning cards. The following analogy depicts the essential elements and is my perspective.

You sit in the middle of a dark room, you can see a door in front of you about fifteen feet away, and a ceiling light illuminates the space between you and the door.

Betty the dancing girl walks into the room directly beneath the light and says to you; "Player, you stand to win a million dollars, but first you must make a choice." "I have in my bejeweled bag ten cards, one of which is the ace of spades." "If I draw the ace of spades for you, then you will win." If I don't draw the ace of spades, then you will loose." "You must choose if I should burn one card before your draw or leave all the cards in the bag." "Make your choice."

Let's see. If I remove a card, then it might be the ace and that would not help me, because Betty couldn't draw it, or I could skip the burn and keep all the cards in the bag. So you say, "Betty, skip the burn and draw me an ace Baby!"

1st scenario - she picks the first card, you win/lose. odds = 1 in 10
2nd scenario - she burns a card (-10%,) and draws a card, you win/lose. odds = (1 in 10)-.1 = .9

Ten percent of the time the winning card will be absent from the bag, it cannot be drawn, and so the 1 in 10 win ratio is reduced by .10, ten percent. Out of 100 draws 10 wins will turn into nine, simply because one of those draws that should have been a win was a loss, because the card was absent.

I need to know if this accurately depicts the differences between virtual and casino play, when cards are burned. Also, should on-line sites offer games that burn cards?
#2
12-01-2007, 01:31 AM
 GeeBeeQED Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 109
Re: Burning Cards On-line

I love how you ask the question with a story. You had my interest all the way. I do hope you post a photo of Betty at some point.

I'd say of significance is with Betty, your playing solitare, at a poker table your playing against other players. With betty there is nothing to lose, If the Ace does not come out, she leaves the room and your assets have not been reduced. You are still whole. You're correct, the burn hurts you here.

However, when your playing against other players they are effected equally by the random removal of a card from the deck. Also, when a small card is removed, there are more big cards (as a percentage of the remaining deck) to help you with your good starting hands. But then, they are there to help the other players as well.

The burn is used to make cheating more difficult. It's easy for the dealer to show the top and bottom card to somebody seated next to them or at either end of the table. Thus the reason for a cut card on the bottom of the deck and burning the top card. Online it's presumed we don't have to worry about the dealer helping a conspirator so in this way you are correct, the burn is not nessasary.

However, consistant and deliberate procedure where money is concerned (at the bank or the poker table) goes a long way towards keeping customers contented. How the deck is handled is in effect how the games money is handled. If they did not burn (who's to say they really are??) it would be noticed and a great many more customers would question this.

I can hear it now from the teaming luck based players. "Hey, you jerks failed to burn and the other player got my card!!!!"

Another thought, since more of the deck is 10 or above (commonly refered to as big cards) than 9 and below then a burn procedure would tend to slant the deck contents towards increasing the ratio of larger cards as it's more likley a small card will be burnt. I'm not sure this could be used in any way with strategy other than to offer some slight support to the idea that it's better to play bigger cards.

Dave
#3
12-01-2007, 01:38 AM
 pzhon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4,515
Re: Burning Cards On-line

Burning cards makes no difference.

When the burned cards is the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], your chance drops to 0. When the burned card is not, your chance rises to 1/9. 9/10 * 1/9 + 1/10 * 0 = 1/10. These possibilities exactly cancel.
#4
12-01-2007, 01:41 AM
 Geode Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21
Re: Burning Cards On-line

You were faster.

OP, pzhon is right. If you want to understand better the formula pzhon used read about conditional probabilities (it justifies the multiplications)and disjoint events (it justifies the addition).
#5
12-01-2007, 01:57 AM
 GeeBeeQED Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 109
Re: Burning Cards On-line

GeeBee; Strike one

Dave
#6
12-01-2007, 11:11 AM
 Ray Zee Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: montana usa Posts: 4,803
Re: Burning Cards On-line

easiest way for those that feel asleep in high school math

think that the cards have no faces on them until a human hand turns them up.
#7
12-01-2007, 01:22 PM
 Hunter898 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3
Re: Burning Cards On-line

Thanks everyone. I understand and was trying to avoid rummaging through boxes for my statistics books.

David, In your last paragraph you suggest that a burn procedure would have an affect on the deck. Would this impact play? My argument all along has been to include the burns in some virtual games to make the virtual and casino games procedurally equivalant.

Oh and Ray Zee, please spare me the condescending attitude. When a student asks a question and the teacher says "You are ignorant," which is obvious, then it's not the teacher's goal to educate, but to demean. It would appear that while I'm here to learn a bit, you are here to attempt to gratify a hollow ego. Pick on someone who can offer a challenge. It's not easy, but it is rewarding.
#8
12-01-2007, 04:13 PM
 RustyBrooks Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,380
Re: Burning Cards On-line

[ QUOTE ]

David, In your last paragraph you suggest that a burn procedure would have an affect on the deck. Would this impact play? My argument all along has been to include the burns in some virtual games to make the virtual and casino games procedurally equivalant.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was wrong (I think he admitted this in a later post), burning a card does not affect the outcome. Burning all the cards but one does not affect the outcome.

This sometimes helps people (and sometimes not). Instead of thinking of a bag of cards, think of a stack of cards. Every possible ordering of the cards is equally likely, right? You have the choice to draw one card off the top, or burn and draw the next card.

The As is the top card 1/10 times. It's the 2nd card 1/10 times. It's the 3rd card 1/10 times, and so forth.

So, drawing the first card means you get the A 1/10 times
Burning 1 and drawing the 2nd card means you get the A 1/10 times
Burning 2 and drawing the 3rd card means you get the A 1/10 times
and so forth.
#9
12-01-2007, 05:19 PM
 pzhon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4,515
Re: Burning Cards On-line

[ QUOTE ]

Oh and Ray Zee, please spare me the condescending attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]
One day, you may learn who Ray Zee is, and realize how ridiculous you sound here. You should be grateful that he took a couple of minutes to describe a simple way to see that burn cards do not matter. If you had some perspective on the problem, you wouldn't view what he said as condescending.
#10
12-02-2007, 12:07 AM
 Hunter898 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3
Re: Burning Cards On-line

You are right pzhon. After a couple of days of thinking and discussing this, really asserting what I thought was right, I came here. It was not until I read the equation you posted that the light came on and my delusion collapsed in a good way, I was looking for it. However, I've been taking a good beating on another site, justly so, and while enlightenment is the blessing, then the implosion of a delusion is an ego buster. I did react emotionally.

Ray Zee, I appreciate the feedback, now, though earlier today, in a different state of mind, I received it poorly. I apologize for characterizing your intent as other than it is.

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