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  #51  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:27 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

BUMP
best thread ever in limit ---> NL forum
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  #52  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:45 PM
diebitter diebitter is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

To be clear about the 5/10 rule:

You have an easy call if you have any sort of drawing hand if it's less than 5% of effective stacks when you are IN POSITION... this very, very important point seemed to be lacking in the posts I saw about this (or at least it really isn't emphasised enough). It's a fold if more than 10% of effective stacks, and a judgement call when between 5% and 10%

Examples:

1) A TAG who will stack off with top pair raises from UTG the equivalent of 10% of the effective stacks, it's folded to me and I'm OTB, what do I do?
With any PP, I call (but only because he is capable of stacking off with top pair...if there was any doubt, I'd fold at 10%).
With Axs or SC, I fold.

Same again, but this time it's about 8%? I do the same.

Same again, but this time it's 7% and he gets 2 callers with decent stacks? I probably call with Axs and maybe some non-dominated SCs and suited gappers like T9s-54s.

Same again (early 10% raise, no callers), but this time I'm in SB? I fold pretty much everything except AA and KK. Why? Because a decent TAG will put on the betting brakes if he gets called to a decent bet on the flop a lot of the time. It's way harder to stack him from OOP, so therefore calling his 10% is -EV.

Same again but it's 5% and no callers (or 1 or 2, in this case). I call with any PP, Axs, 54s+,64s+, 76o+,86o+ if I'm OTB. In CO, I'm not calling with unsuited connectors, but I'll call with the rest of these hands. I fold virtually all of these in the SB and BB, even with 2 callers.


Why? Because I lose position, I lose a ton of extraction potential (with either a made hand, or in terms of bluffing).
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  #53  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:26 PM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Location: still a NL fish - so lay off!
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

why is pf always about opening standards?

more pf questions:

1)weaktight player who consistently cont bets but doesnt double barrel opens from ep, folded to you otb, you're both 200bb deep. what's your calling range? threebetting range? If you call, what kind of flops are you looking for to peel on a float?

2)folds to a 40bb lag who opens for 5bb otb. shoving range? calling range and plan?

3)you are 150bb deep and raise to 4bb otb. an unknown sb has 100bb and reraises to 12. folding range? 3bet range?

thx!
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  #54  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:07 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

1. Assuming weak tight means he isn't going to be raising much utg other than pp & AK-AJ. I'd 3bet TT+ & AK, call with loads of sc stuff, pps, AQ. Floating almost any flop which I get a part of - we're 200 deep and he doesn't double barrel!

2. Not sure about this one. I don't really like shoving because I don't think we get much value from it, I like calling and crai when he's a bit more comitted on the flop and we have more of an idea of our hand strength. If he's 40bb and super agro there is no rush to get his stack, it'll come when it's ready.

3. Folding lots here. I'll rarely 4bet prefering to raise his cbet with position. Calling I'd probably say JJ+ AQ+, and a mixture of 4betting and calling with AA/KK.
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  #55  
Old 11-27-2007, 08:25 PM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

dj,

I like your thoughts 1 on 2.

with regards to 3, you're probably in the exploitably predictable range, though the degree to which you actually end up getting exploited may be debatable.

check this thread out
also this one.
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  #56  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:43 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

Nice links, especially the 4bet shoving one. The site I play on doesn't have that much light 3betting so I think adopting something like that would be bad at the moment.

I agree about becoming predictable, against an unknown though I will give them credit until I've got at least some kind of read. Against regs who I know view me as tight/nitty I will sometimes get frisky...

Villian is 17/7 regular

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $109.59
UTG+1: $106.16
hero: $163.02
Button: $88.48
SB: $223.74
BB: $9.86

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $4</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $16.5</font>, BB folds, hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($34.5, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $24</font>, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $24 returned to hero.

Results:
Final pot: $34.5
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  #57  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:13 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

djshawk, nice one, I wish I grow some cojones one day to play like that...but yes, I had a shot at 50NL and am back to my comfort zone at 25NL and it is coming clearer and clearer you need to mix it up PF for sure. Keep them guessing and try to shove the idea behind the Fundamental Theory to them every now and again.
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