50k Challenge reopened with higher stakes

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluff,

Let's look at another point. Many women in African countries do not choose their spouse. Many married women are infected by their husbands. They do not have the choice to abstain from sex in these situations. Do you feel that use of condoms in these situations is morally wrong? Do you deny any of my points?

[/ QUOTE ]


I am only talking about catholics. You question doesn't apply to them because we don't have pre-arranged marriages. And it doesn't matter what the catholic church says re condoms or anything else for non-catholics, because they don't care what the church says.

P.S. I'm done with this thread. Hold me accountable.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bluff,

Let's look at another point. Many women in African countries do not choose their spouse. Many married women are infected by their husbands. They do not have the choice to abstain from sex in these situations. Do you feel that use of condoms in these situations is morally wrong? Do you deny any of my points?

[/ QUOTE ]


I am only talking about catholics. You question doesn't apply to them because we don't have pre-arranged marriages. And it doesn't matter what the catholic church says re condoms or anything else for non-catholics, because they don't care what the church says.

P.S. I'm done with this thread. Hold me accountable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are being willfully naive in this thread. I don't enjoy condescending to entire peoples that I've had little or, in this case, zero, interaction with, but allow me an analogy. The siutuation with the Catholic aid groups is analogous to telling children how operate some complicated, potentially dangerous machinery. Sure, if they follow every single one of your instructions, as you tell them they must, they won't get hurt. But they aren't necessarily going to, because there are some things they really want to do, like make the machine make loud noises, and some things they could care less about, like wearing goggles and gloves. And you are now saying that, when they inevitably hurt themselves, its their own fault for not following all of the rules. But it was obvious to anyone beforehand that they weren't going to be able to follow them all, since no one else ever has.

I really do suck at analogies.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are being willfully naive in this thread. I don't enjoy condescending to entire peoples that I've had little or, in this case, zero, interaction with, but allow me an analogy. The siutuation with the Catholic aid groups is analogous to telling children how operate some complicated, potentially dangerous machinery. Sure, if they follow every single one of your instructions, as you tell them they must, they won't get hurt. But they aren't necessarily going to, because there are some things they really want to do, like make the machine make loud noises, and some things they could care less about, like wearing goggles and gloves. And you are now saying that, when they inevitably hurt themselves, its their own fault for not following all of the rules. But it was obvious to anyone beforehand that they weren't going to be able to follow them all, since no one else ever has.

I really do suck at analogies.

[/ QUOTE ]

The worst I can say about the adults in your analogy is that their advice was well-intentioned, correct, but ultimately impractical. If the same can be said of the Catholic Church in this context, then I think her critics need to temper the vitriol. Or maybe you suck at analogies, and we can continue our accusations of genocide.

[JayTee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bluff,

Let's look at another point. Many women in African countries do not choose their spouse. Many married women are infected by their husbands. They do not have the choice to abstain from sex in these situations. Do you feel that use of condoms in these situations is morally wrong? Do you deny any of my points?

[/ QUOTE ]


I am only talking about catholics. You question doesn't apply to them because we don't have pre-arranged marriages. And it doesn't matter what the catholic church says re condoms or anything else for non-catholics, because they don't care what the church says.

P.S. I'm done with this thread. Hold me accountable.

[/ QUOTE ]

While Catholics in developed countries aren't betrothed, it is common for people to blend their local traditions with marriage. Women are treated as property in many of these areas, and I don't think that treating them this way violates the bible. What will you say when the Catholic church finally reverses its policy on condoms? (I think they almost certainly will. Although how many million more have to die before that happens is a good question.) Maybe if it was 500 years ago we would be arguing about the Earth orbiting around the Sun, or 200 years ago about slavery. If I were you I wouldn't be so stuck in the mud about the teachings of my church; They have a nasty tendency to be wrong.

I don't want to give the impression that I believe that the Catholic church is solely responsible for the spread of AIDS. Their is massive amounts of misinformation on the subject. However, the church is very good at spreading its ideas. When those ideas endanger lives, people must be held accountable. I think the condom issue is just another example that the church is a friend of poverty and enemy of the poor.

Here's a nice article I found.

[JayTee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are being willfully naive in this thread. I don't enjoy condescending to entire peoples that I've had little or, in this case, zero, interaction with, but allow me an analogy. The siutuation with the Catholic aid groups is analogous to telling children how operate some complicated, potentially dangerous machinery. Sure, if they follow every single one of your instructions, as you tell them they must, they won't get hurt. But they aren't necessarily going to, because there are some things they really want to do, like make the machine make loud noises, and some things they could care less about, like wearing goggles and gloves. And you are now saying that, when they inevitably hurt themselves, its their own fault for not following all of the rules. But it was obvious to anyone beforehand that they weren't going to be able to follow them all, since no one else ever has.

I really do suck at analogies.

[/ QUOTE ]

The worst I can say about the adults in your analogy is that their advice was well-intentioned, correct, but ultimately impractical. If the same can be said of the Catholic Church in this context, then I think her critics need to temper the vitriol. Or maybe you suck at analogies, and we can continue our accusations of genocide.

[/ QUOTE ]

When millions of children die after receiving the instructions I would hope they would rethink their policy.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are being willfully naive in this thread. I don't enjoy condescending to entire peoples that I've had little or, in this case, zero, interaction with, but allow me an analogy. The siutuation with the Catholic aid groups is analogous to telling children how operate some complicated, potentially dangerous machinery. Sure, if they follow every single one of your instructions, as you tell them they must, they won't get hurt. But they aren't necessarily going to, because there are some things they really want to do, like make the machine make loud noises, and some things they could care less about, like wearing goggles and gloves. And you are now saying that, when they inevitably hurt themselves, its their own fault for not following all of the rules. But it was obvious to anyone beforehand that they weren't going to be able to follow them all, since no one else ever has.

I really do suck at analogies.

[/ QUOTE ]

The worst I can say about the adults in your analogy is that their advice was well-intentioned, correct, but ultimately impractical. If the same can be said of the Catholic Church in this context, then I think her critics need to temper the vitriol. Or maybe you suck at analogies, and we can continue our accusations of genocide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But having seen the disastrous results, the parents continue to deny any culpability and have no plans to stop teaching other kids about this dangerous machine any time in the future.

[DougShrapnel]

BluffThis Says,
[ QUOTE ]
Doug,

You still aren't really answering the question I put to you. Furthermore, by logical extension, any talk of "holding responsible" must also extend to any group, including political parties, who through their exercise of free speech, advocate actions even when they don't incite violence (but especially when they do), but which do in the opinion of others, have deleterious effects. As an example, to myself and likeminded people, the Democrat party's advocacy of legal abortion. Or to liberals, the Republican party's advocacy of the war in Iraq. So we religious repubs can sue the dem party for abortion, and you lib dems can sue the repub party for the lives of soldiers lost in the war. That sound right?

[/ QUOTE ]

BluffThis Says
[ QUOTE ]

Doug,

You still didn't answer my question. So I'm not going to answer any more of yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

BluffThis Says
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P.S. I'm done with this thread. Hold me accountable.

[/ QUOTE ] I'll answer your question a thrid time. Please, at least answer my questions once. Why don't you stone to death people that work on sundays? Why are xtians largely for killing all the muslims? Why do you feel that condom use in africa is unehtical? Where is any evidence of a soul that makes you believe that stem cell research is unethical?

On to your question. It's not the deletrious effects but the methods that are at issue. It's reason over superstition. Reality over myth. Both of your examples don't work well. Abortion could be unethical, I don't believe it is, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. The Iraq war also, I hope was based on intelligence, and not Bush getting a direct command from God himself to strike at Iraq. Yes Bush should be held acountable if he attacked Iraq based on what he believes was a divine inspiration. So if you care to give other examples and suggestions for how one should hold you accountable, but also muslim extremists. I am all ears.