PoohBah Post: Playing OOP in HUSNGs

[dboy23]

before this falls into the abyss does anyone have any oop situations they would like to discuss? Maybe against certain player types?

[ChicagoRy]

I'd like to discuss this:

POKERSTARS GAME #9753504619: TOURNAMENT #49493846, $5.00+$0.50 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - MATCH ROUND I, LEVEL I (10/20) - 2007/05/04 - 23:09:27 (ET)
Table '49493846 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: RyPac13 (760 in chips)
Seat 2: LOLBillFrist (2240 in chips)
LOLBillFrist: posts small blind 10
RyPac13: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RyPac13 [4s Kc]
LOLBillFrist: calls 10
RyPac13: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3c Tc]
RyPac13: checks
LOLBillFrist: bets 40
RyPac13: raises 120 to 160
LOLBillFrist: calls 120
*** TURN *** [Kd 3c Tc] [2d]
RyPac13: bets 260
LOLBillFrist: raises 620 to 880
RyPac13: calls 320 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Kd 3c Tc 2d] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RyPac13: shows [4s Kc] (a pair of Kings)
LOLBillFrist: shows [7s Td] (two pair, Tens and Sevens)
RyPac13 said, "lol"
LOLBillFrist said, "thats how i do"
LOLBillFrist collected 1520 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1520 | Rake 0
Board [Kd 3c Tc 2d 7h]
Seat 1: RyPac13 (big blind) showed [4s Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: LOLBillFrist (button) (small blind) showed [7s Td] and won (1520) with two pair, Tens and Sevens

[Sheetah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your contribution to the forum. I threw a link to this post in the sticky.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] ty leader.

[/ QUOTE ]
You deserve it. Cool post.

[Mibbbbbbb....]

Good job, dboy, very nice post!

I've seen several posts recommending a pretty wide range for 3-beting. Wasicka for example suggested 3-beting A8+ in his post on Full Tilt, which in my opinion is clearly wrong - 3-beting is so player dependant. I'm sure a lot of less experienced players will find themselves in trouble postflop, when they've bet too weak or marginal hands. IMO a good example is a hand like 88, which will be so hard to play without a set. I would just call with this hand and play a small pot without a set.

I have some problems with check-raising, when both players have checked preflop. You most likely checked a weak hand so you're pretty much getting yourself into trouble out of positition. The pot is small, no need to get too frisky. I prefer a 1/2-2/3 donkbet. If I would check-raise, it would probably be with a draw or monster.

[dboy23]

[ QUOTE ]
Good job, dboy, very nice post!

I've seen several posts recommending a pretty wide range for 3-beting. Wasicka for example suggested 3-beting A8+ in his post on Full Tilt, which in my opinion is clearly wrong - 3-beting is so player dependant. I'm sure a lot of less experienced players will find themselves in trouble postflop, when they've bet too weak or marginal hands. IMO a good example is a hand like 88, which will be so hard to play without a set. I would just call with this hand and play a small pot without a set.

I have some problems with check-raising, when both players have checked preflop. You most likely checked a weak hand so you're pretty much getting yourself into trouble out of positition. The pot is small, no need to get too frisky. I prefer a 1/2-2/3 donkbet. If I would check-raise, it would probably be with a draw or monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey, I agree about calling small pairs OOP against most types of players. There are a few where it is profitable to 3bet them but they have to have specific qualities for that to be best (namely they raise alot of buttons and play fit or fold on the flop).


As for checkraising in limped pots, that is something I started doing more recently, and as always only against certain opponents as an exploit to a leak. Their leak is they bet close to 100% of limped pots, so why get them to fold when I can check, get 40 to 100 more chips, then raise them.

Most better opponents arent that aggressive in limped pots so donking is great. That is just a specific adjustment I was talking about and not a standard play.

[dboy23]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to discuss this:

POKERSTARS GAME #9753504619: TOURNAMENT #49493846, $5.00+$0.50 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - MATCH ROUND I, LEVEL I (10/20) - 2007/05/04 - 23:09:27 (ET)
Table '49493846 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: RyPac13 (760 in chips)
Seat 2: LOLBillFrist (2240 in chips)
LOLBillFrist: posts small blind 10
RyPac13: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RyPac13 [4s Kc]
LOLBillFrist: calls 10
RyPac13: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3c Tc]
RyPac13: checks
LOLBillFrist: bets 40
RyPac13: raises 120 to 160
LOLBillFrist: calls 120
*** TURN *** [Kd 3c Tc] [2d]
RyPac13: bets 260
LOLBillFrist: raises 620 to 880
RyPac13: calls 320 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Kd 3c Tc 2d] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RyPac13: shows [4s Kc] (a pair of Kings)
LOLBillFrist: shows [7s Td] (two pair, Tens and Sevens)
RyPac13 said, "lol"
LOLBillFrist said, "thats how i do"
LOLBillFrist collected 1520 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1520 | Rake 0
Board [Kd 3c Tc 2d 7h]
Seat 1: RyPac13 (big blind) showed [4s Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: LOLBillFrist (button) (small blind) showed [7s Td] and won (1520) with two pair, Tens and Sevens

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the c/r flop against this particular donk. He likely has some sort of hand because he isn't betting every time you check to him, but your hand figures to be better and if he has a piece he might just put you on a flush/straight draw and get it in on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Svarog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great topic choice, great post.

There is another possible scenario. Let's take the following villain type:

-generally passive, always limps the button
-will usually call your large (4-5xbb) OOP raise
-will continue calling on the flop and beyond if they catch any piece or draw

Let's say you get AKs OOP and make the standard 4-5xbb raise after the button limps. The flop is dry, you bet anyway, and get called. Assuming you don't connect, how many more barrels do you fire? Or do you take a different line from the beginning?

[/ QUOTE ]

usually firing a second barrel. And AK is an always raise for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that we are dealing with a passive call station here. Let's say there's a 50% chance he's on a draw (probably folding to a large bet on the turn/river), and 50% he has a hand like 2nd pair or TPWK (which he's calling down with no matter what). If he calls your 2nd barrel, now you're facing a large pot OOP on a river where you might have to check/fold. What's the reason for bloating the pot in this situation? Are you betting your AK for value, or has it gradually turned into a bluff?

[APXG]

This is very good thinking, I disagree with some minor parts but thats irrelevant b.c. your thought process / approach to thinking is excellent, and thats all that matters when learning poker. Some questions / comments:

1. When you are calling raises from an aggro button, how do you determine your purebluff checkraise frequency? When you do decide to bluff CR, what goes thru your mind with regards to leading the turn? If you check the turn after flop bluff, always check-fold to a bet? River plan if its checked through? Obviously a lot of this depends on specific boards, but many times generalizations can be more useful.

2. Same as above but this time with a flush draw.

3.When you say CC CR represents a lot of strength, what about using it as bluff, specifically when your flopped draw misses on the turn?

4. For 3bets, I think you're missing the point a little bit in that the main goal is not picking up the 3x raise, but rather stacking your opponent with a big pair / flopped top pair in the big pot that ensues.

If you only think about the 4bb PF pot, it does makes sense to 3bet only good hands b.c. the standalone EV of 3betting T8o is very questionable. However, for it to be -EV, you're opponent is gonna have to float lots of your auto cbets and then be able to get away when you do have the goods -- most people either float and then bluff off their stack backing up the float, or they just don't ever float and fold the flop.

SO in other words, its crucial to have a wide range, even if the worst components of your range are slightly -EV. The times when these "euro-style" floaters stack off to your AA while trying to intercept T8o will greatly make up for the times when they steal your PF 3bet + cbet. And if against the never-floaters, 3bet autoleading even 72o is +EV.

5. In the button limps, Hero raises PF spot -- you cbet 100%, he calls, you missed the flop, what conditions would make you do anything other than CF?

[ChicagoRy]

I know the question was to Dboy, but generally I am very conservative with firing 2 in #5 and #3. Calling c/r are not given enough respect IMO from most opponents, so it's not especially great to use as a bluff unless you are playing somebody fairly good that can lay down hands. Shorter stack sizes and tilt from a great % of HUSNG players makes it even harder to use as a bluff, the more chips they commit the harder it is to get a fold out of them (obviously).

The same goes for doubling on a floated 3-bet c-bet, but to a lesser extent. If I know my opponent's tendencies well enough I will c/r my big hands on the turn in this spot b/c I know they bet almost anything, if they're kind of a more hesitant opponent and my image isn't trash I will fire 2 on misses if I know I can get them off everything except top pair, especially when draws did not hit the turn or when I have a draw of my own that can connect to beat the small part of their range that might call my 2nd fire.

Good points about 3-betting APXG.

[APXG]

[ QUOTE ]
Good job, dboy, very nice post!

I've seen several posts recommending a pretty wide range for 3-beting. Wasicka for example suggested 3-beting A8+ in his post on Full Tilt, which in my opinion is clearly wrong - 3-beting is so player dependant. I'm sure a lot of less experienced players will find themselves in trouble postflop, when they've bet too weak or marginal hands. IMO a good example is a hand like 88, which will be so hard to play without a set. I would just call with this hand and play a small pot without a set.

I have some problems with check-raising, when both players have checked preflop. You most likely checked a weak hand so you're pretty much getting yourself into trouble out of positition. The pot is small, no need to get too frisky. I prefer a 1/2-2/3 donkbet. If I would check-raise, it would probably be with a draw or monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you in that a hand like A+mid-x is one of the worst to 3bet. It is dominated within the Ace range essentially always, and only marginally less as the x gets bigger. So if an A flops and you hold A8, you just can't profitably go broke.

The more important aspect, however, is that A-high flops are very straight forward in 3bet HU SNG scenarios. Overcards are not possible on A-high boards, so most likely the opponent is either close to dead, or drawing to 2 outs. This is combined with the fact that the 3bettor's range is made of aces. In short, people don't float A-high flops in 3bet pots in HU SNGs.

Therefore, if you do get played back at on an A-high flop, you have to shut down anyway, so there's no difference whether you have 72o or Ax. In fact, Ax may make you more tempted to make a mistake.

So -- Wasicka is right in that you need to have a wide range, but wrong in advising selecting mid-Aces as regular-basis components of that range.