BR Management and You (NLTRN)

[MasterLJ]

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what about nl cash??

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NL Cash is extremely volatile.

If you are recreational, I advise 30 buy-ins+ per level. If you are pro, you are a dolt if you have anything less than 50.

[RyanJM]

Mega-nit!

[MasterLJ]

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Mega-nit!

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Have you not seen my graph? I have a decent winrate and have had a 20 BI downer in 50k hands.

[RyanJM]

Sorry, this forum is confusing to follow the threads sometimes. I was replying to Kharlog's post with his recommendation of $5k for $50's and $10k for 100's.

[cwar]

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Sorry, this forum is confusing to follow the threads sometimes. I was replying to Kharlog's post with his recommendation of $5k for $50's and $10k for 100's.

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I think thats a very reasonable bankroll especially if your playing for a living.

[ChicagoRy]

If you're playing for a living you should be able to drop down if you start losing. Having 100 buyins is not necessary if your skill level is high. If you're around 56% or so and professional at the 55s you should probably drop down to 33s to work on some stuff or game select your ass off so your winrate goes up.

And if your winrate is 60% or higher your variance will not be that high. 17 buyins at the 110s would be about 2k. Having 5k in your br should be plenty if you have the mentality to handle a downswing. Also note a 17 buyin downswing for somebody like cwar should not be all that common, that is a rarity for most winning players, let alone solid winners.

Also, personally there are times when playing that I could handle a 17 buyin downswing. Other times I know I could not. I would move down a level or two and then move back up when I am emotionally ready, thus requiring less buyins.

It just seems 100 is way too high as a general advice for buyins, professional or otherwise.

[cwar]

Hmm its very strange for me to hear ppl saying that you can have too big a bankroll for the level that just seems silly to me. If you are playing professionally I dont you ever want to be in a spot where dropping 20% of your bankroll is an expected event. And if you play a lot of HU sngs I guarantee this will happen to you sometime in your next 10k matches. But I will modify my opinion, I dont think you necessarily need 100 buyins for the level your at (although I can in no way see this hurting you) but I think you need 100 buyins for the lowest level you can make your living at.

I think a lot of the advice is very impatient in this thread, think about your long term plans is spending another month at a lower limit really that bad? I plan on being here for another 5 years at least, a month is a drop in the bucket however if you play too aggressively for your bankroll and psychological comfort you could easily cost yourself several months in the time it costs to rebuild and in the long run that could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. Goal number one is to always protect your bankroll, after that, then you can worry about trying to make the most money.

[dboy23]

I should add that if you are a losing player, no BR management can help you, you will bust. If you are a barely winning player variance is going to be crazy for you and you should definitely have at least 35 buyins if your winrate is 53%.

Also I really wish I knew how to calculate ROR including moving down. I'm sure it is low if you move down as that allows for the loss of many more buyins than not moving down.

Number 1 priority for new HU sng players is to become a solid player. If you are new, you shouldn't focus on trying to move up. You should play at a level where you are comfortable losing many many buyins.

all that said there are a few things I would like to add to the OP and perhaps you guys can suggest some numbers.

minimum winrate% for each option.

i'm thinking,

option 1: 55% (and get better before getting to the 20s+)
option 2: 58% (get better before trying 50s)
option 3: 63%

those are just estimates to get you to a fairly safe ROR%.

[dboy23]

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Hmm its very strange for me to hear ppl saying that you can have too big a bankroll for the level that just seems silly to me. If you are playing professionally I dont you ever want to be in a spot where dropping 20% of your bankroll is an expected event. And if you play a lot of HU sngs I guarantee this will happen to you sometime in your next 10k matches. But I will modify my opinion, I dont think you necessarily need 100 buyins for the level your at (although I can in no way see this hurting you) but I think you need 100 buyins for the lowest level you can make your living at.

I think a lot of the advice is very impatient in this thread, think about your long term plans is spending another month at a lower limit really that bad? I plan on being here for another 5 years at least, a month is a drop in the bucket however if you play too aggressively for your bankroll and psychological comfort you could easily cost yourself several months in the time it costs to rebuild and in the long run that could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. Goal number one is to always protect your bankroll, after that, then you can worry about trying to make the most money.

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It's really about personal preference and utility. If you have other sources of income and winning $10/hour doesn't mean much to you, but you are great at HU sngs, option 3 might be the best for you.

If you have no other source of income and can live off of $10/hour than you shouldn't risk busting with option 3. You might play somewhere between #2 and #1.

Psychological comfort is also an important consideration when choosing a BR management ruleset. If losing and moving down affects your psyche poorly then you need to have a lot of buyins in your BR.

Being a professional entails getting your ROR as low as you possibly can. But you can still move up fairly aggressively if you are also willing to move down aggressively. A lot of people can't handle that so they should play conservatively.

[ChicagoRy]

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Hmm its very strange for me to hear ppl saying that you can have too big a bankroll for the level that just seems silly to me. If you are playing professionally I dont you ever want to be in a spot where dropping 20% of your bankroll is an expected event. And if you play a lot of HU sngs I guarantee this will happen to you sometime in your next 10k matches. But I will modify my opinion, I dont think you necessarily need 100 buyins for the level your at (although I can in no way see this hurting you) but I think you need 100 buyins for the lowest level you can make your living at.

I think a lot of the advice is very impatient in this thread, think about your long term plans is spending another month at a lower limit really that bad? I plan on being here for another 5 years at least, a month is a drop in the bucket however if you play too aggressively for your bankroll and psychological comfort you could easily cost yourself several months in the time it costs to rebuild and in the long run that could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. Goal number one is to always protect your bankroll, after that, then you can worry about trying to make the most money.

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It's not that it is bad to have 100 buyins, but if you are a 63% winner at say the 55s, there is no reason not to move up to the 110s with 40 buyins, even less. You should not be playing 55s with 5k if you are winning 63% of your games IMO because you are losing so much money by not moving up to 110s where your winrate should be 60%.

The variance of that winrate should not be major at all.

Losing 20% should be a relatively rare thing for a winner of that caliber, so rare in fact that a professional player with a winrate that high should probably be able to overlook it or by the end of this downswing should have gained the mental capacity to stand the swings.

HUSNG is the lowest for of variance in NL (I believe). I would even go as far to say most internet pros in other forms of NL have moved up a lot more aggressively, probably even closer in line with Dboy's BR guidelines than mine. This is comparatively speaking of course, as most internet pros did not make their bread and butter through HUSNG.

Just some thoughts of mine on br management, it's not bad to be conservative, it is certainly better to be too conservative than too aggressive, but I think having a good balance of being able to drop down and building up a tough mental state as you climb the ranks is very important and the most profitable and efficient way to make the most and learn the most for everybody.