I do this a lot

[yourface]

unknown villain

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) yourface is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">yourface raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">yourface bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">yourface bets</font>, BB calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
yourface checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, yourface calls.

would you take different lines vs different villain types?

[NinaWilliams]

I usually fold the river because it seems like an unknown always has a pair when he does this. Not sure if its correct though.

[sweetjazz]

Heh, this is pretty similar to your A6o hand in the HU forum. If you look at turn + river play, you end up putting 2 BB in to try to win 4.5 BB. Yet on the turn you have a weak A high hand with 3 outs (at best) when behind and very vulnerable if ahead. I think my line in this hand would be either to check/fold the turn, or bet/fold the turn and then check/fold the river.

Given how you played flop and turn, what hand could BB have that calls the turn besides his one pair hands? Well he could have had a gutshot on the flop, but presumably he needs to be double-gutted or open-ended on the turn to continue. That leaves -- QJ, Q8, J8, 75. Of course, 75 got there on the river, so your river call is based on the hope that 2 out of 11 times your opponent will have passively played his draw with QJ/Q8/J8, but decided to bluff at the river when checked to. (Your opponent could also have KQ/KJ, but it's more likely he raises before the flop or checks behidn the river with these hands.)

I don't think you have a profitable river call given how you played the hand, and I think it's questionable at best whether you have a profitable turn bet.

[jstill]

yeah im not really sure about this hand and im not really sure how i figure out what my turn/river line is here (which pisses me off i dont), I think i adjust to player tendencies. If recent metagame means im looking him up with A hi when I ck and only folding air he doesnt have to bluff KQ KJ, if i think he knows this and plays solid id ck fold the river.

the turns of pretty dubious value I ck fold if i think QJ and some range of air will raise my turn bet anyways

sometimes I ck call here just to mix it up or if our recent dynamic in blind battles has been im cking and folding the turn often and I think hes floating lighter ect, i like to know hes not a total spaz of will fire two with air vs my ck call turn line.

tough spot the turn bets getting a bit spewey I think though?

in a HU match ur line seems fine-ish, the more mindlessly aggro the more often u should take ur line rather than ck folding somewhere.

[yourface]

c/f turn seems bad given all of the straight draws possible. this flop gets peeled by a huge range of hands and a lot of villains will bet their whole range when checked to on the turn

I use c/c on the turn sometimes vs aggressive villains, but I feel like that line makes my hand very easy to read especially if I have used it before on the same table

I assume that villain is loose and bad until proven otherwise, so I don't remove gutshot+overcard type hands from his range after he calls my turn bet. maybe I should discount them though

[milesdyson]

i play it like this. i don't agree that gutshots fold the turn very much (especially with an overcard like Q8 or K7). the river call might be slightly -ev (i think it is slightly +ev), but i'll gladly take a hit to see what he played this way in this very common spot.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
c/f turn seems bad given all of the straight draws possible. this flop gets peeled by a huge range of hands and a lot of villains will bet their whole range when checked to on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't deny that you're ahead in this pot some amount of the time. The problem is that you have very little equity when behind, usually only a fair amount of equity when ahead, and you have a positional disadvantage.

I think ALWAYS check/folding this turn is too weak. But I think ALWAYS betting this turn and check/calling a blank river is also a pretty lousy line and makes it fairly easy for the BB to play against you.

If you think that check/calling the turn gives away your hand (A high that is looking to showdown UI), then I don't necessarily think it is that bad. Your opponent will generally play the river "perfectly" by betting all of his pairs and checking behind his missed draws; so you can respond by playing perfectly by check/folding UI.

BTW, I am not suggesting you should check/fold A high in general on the turn on this board. A primary consideration is that your kicker is a 5, which is an undercard to the entire flop. I'd be much happier betting the turn with AQ, where I often have 6 outs when behind and I can beat A8 and A7. These little differences add EV in a marginal spot.

[goofball]

for this board specifically that seems like an ok line to take. Often villain will have a busted straight draw without showdown value that he now feels compelled to bet.

[yourface]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't deny that you're ahead in this pot some amount of the time. The problem is that you have very little equity when behind, usually only a fair amount of equity when ahead, and you have a positional disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A primary consideration is that your kicker is a 5, which is an undercard to the entire flop. I'd be much happier betting the turn with AQ, where I often have 6 outs when behind and I can beat A8 and A7. These little differences add EV in a marginal spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
great points thanks a lot

[ QUOTE ]
If you think that check/calling the turn gives away your hand (A high that is looking to showdown UI), then I don't necessarily think it is that bad. Your opponent will generally play the river "perfectly" by betting all of his pairs and checking behind his missed draws; so you can respond by playing perfectly by check/folding UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
I always manage to convince myself that villain is going to fire the last barrel with a non showdownable hand anyways because he is bad at poker. usually I just get value bet to death though, so something needs to change.

also if I use that line once in a session I get worried about people trying to exploit that and always firing the last barrel. maybe I could flip a coin/roll dice and call some of the time. I'd be calling enough to discourage a bluff, but not always paying off value bets.

[yourface]

or maybe folding sometimes will make a bluff more likely, so when I call there is a greater chance of snapping one off