Final table of Stars $30+3 (360 Max)

Hallett · #1 08-23-2007, 05:10 AM

The check on the flop here is suspicious, as villain is quite aggressive. With the smooth call after I reraise, I though they could have AQ, JJ, TT, 99, etc. I think with AK, AA or KK villain would have shoved PF. Villain does like to see a lot of flops, but is smart, and knows they have crappy position.

Is the PF re-raise the right size? Would it be better to just shove? The reraise is perfectly sized to make it impossible to get away from my hand here, and in my mind forces the flop bet to put villain all in. I can't imagine not betting this flop, but I can't be excited when I get called.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this hand.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t800/t1600
(Ante: t150)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t56119
UTG+1: t46051
MP1: t38712
MP2: t93415
Hero: t68014
Button: t19132
SB: t42841
BB: t22716

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises to t4800, 3 folds, Hero raises to t16280, 3 folds, UTG calls t11480 (pot was t24680).

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t36160, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t40000, UTG calls all-in t39689.
Uncalled bets: t311 returned to Hero.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t115538, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t115538)

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t115538, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t115538)

Results:
Final pot: t115538

billybeartku · #2 08-23-2007, 05:19 AM

i'd play the same. similar 3bet amount pf, and cbet w/ QQ on T high flop. I wonder what the UTG had here.

tafokints · #3 08-23-2007, 05:19 AM

with that reraise, you commited yourself to the hand. Nothing you can do there.

boohaa12 · #4 08-23-2007, 05:46 AM

fricking asiabeauty beat me heads up at end (brag)
i lost to asiabeauty (i suck balls)
-bong

black666 · #5 08-23-2007, 10:41 AM

Would have played the same. Looks like a bad beat or a cooler.

carko3 · #6 08-23-2007, 11:09 AM

What about villain's view of you?
What's your image to him?

If you've been super aggressive, 3-betting preflop a lot at the final table or final 2-3 tables and he's seen you do this, he might be flat calling your preflop re-raise with weaker hands than AA/KK enough for this play to be fine.

If not, and you have been extremely tight (and assuming he knows this and is a capable player), even an aggressive villain here will pretty much only have AA or KK, (maybe QQ and JJ and doesn't know what to do with them, is hoping you'll show weakness postflop somehow, etc).

levAA · #7 08-23-2007, 12:39 PM

I think the preflop betsize is worth some discussion:

My view:

I think your preflop bet is too large as it is not our primary concern to commit us to the pot (if we just want to do that we could shove) but to keep hands that we beat in the hand (TT-JJ, AQ+) and chase off the blinds.

Hands that beat us (KK+) will call anyway if not repush.

So you choose a bet size that commits you and UTG to the pot. I think you risk that the lower PP and AQ will fold, as they get odds for calling of 1:2,1.

what if we give the smaller PP better pot-odds - say 1:3, which means we raise to about 12k. i think this is easily big enough to chase away the blinds but the PP get better odds to call, but still make a mistake as they are 4,5:1 dogs.

just my idea

Hallett · #8 08-23-2007, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fricking asiabeauty beat me heads up at end (brag)
i lost to asiabeauty (i suck balls)
-bong

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLZ....you played a great game!

Hallett · #9 08-23-2007, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the preflop betsize is worth some discussion:

My view:

I think your preflop bet is too large as it is not our primary concern to commit us to the pot (if we just want to do that we could shove) but to keep hands that we beat in the hand (TT-JJ, AQ+) and chase off the blinds.

Hands that beat us (KK+) will call anyway if not repush.

So you choose a bet size that commits you and UTG to the pot. I think you risk that the lower PP and AQ will fold, as they get odds for calling of 1:2,1.

what if we give the smaller PP better pot-odds - say 1:3, which means we raise to about 12k. i think this is easily big enough to chase away the blinds but the PP get better odds to call, but still make a mistake as they are 4,5:1 dogs.

just my idea

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for this, it is very much in line with what I was thinking. By re-raising so large, I did not really accomplish anything useful, other than perhaps making a lesser hand fold and take a shot at picking up the pot now (which certainly is fine with QQ). Hands that I can beat without too much stress and worry will fold to my bet, while hands that make life more complicated for me are not folding, and in fact may just wait to the flop to get it all in. In my mind as he smoothcalled, I went "Oh-Oh!", and while I can beat a lot of hands still with that flop, I am going to be crushed by AA, KK, TT, 88 and 77, all of which play like this.

If I pokerstove the hands I think the villain might play this way, I get something like:

Board: Tc 7s 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.070% 50.54% 01.53% 31021 939.50 { QcQh }
Hand 1: 47.930% 46.40% 01.53% 28480 939.50 { 77+, AJs+, AQo+ }

Admittedly, this may be off a bit, as he might not call all the way down to 77, but the idea I was turning over in my head was that the raise makes the hands I want to see here fold before the flop, and the hands that I have a hard time with are still in the hand.

Interesting spot.

And, of course, he had TT.

Hallett · #10 08-23-2007, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about villain's view of you?
What's your image to him?

If you've been super aggressive, 3-betting preflop a lot at the final table or final 2-3 tables and he's seen you do this, he might be flat calling your preflop re-raise with weaker hands than AA/KK enough for this play to be fine.

If not, and you have been extremely tight (and assuming he knows this and is a capable player), even an aggressive villain here will pretty much only have AA or KK, (maybe QQ and JJ and doesn't know what to do with them, is hoping you'll show weakness postflop somehow, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, we had been on other tables until I knocked out the 10th place dude. I had been watching villains table, and I thought that they were a bit volatile, with large chip swings as well as being aggressive and a bit loose (not to sound like that is a bad style, just the opposite. This villain in my mind is very much aiming for, and capable of getting, the outright win). If they had been watching me, they likely would have thought me rather tight, but was playing enough hands to stay in the top 3 in chips for quite a while. I agree, when he flat called, I was not a happy camper.