Couples with differing views on religion

[tarheeljks]

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Also, WRT your comment about atheists being close minded. Well, I would agree with that. I am also close minded on a slew of other things such as basic mathematics(2+2=4) and things of that nature.

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I wasn't implying that all aetheists are close-minded. The point I was making about close-mindedness was more about aetheists (often ones who consider themselves liberal and accepting) who ridicule and do not respect the beliefs of god-fearing folk, not aetheists in general.

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I don't get this. Would it be acceptable to you to ridicule and not respect the beliefs of those who believe in the great invisible cheese monster who lives in the depths of the universe? Or those who believe that televisions are inhabited by miniature people who disappear when you open it to make repairs? Does the fact that an irrational belief is shared by many people make it more worthy of respect?

P.S. I am referring to intelligent, educated people. If someone has simply been brought up believing in some religion and has never had the opportunity or means to question it I don't think they are worthy of ridicule.

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can you prove that believing in god is irrational?

[RustedCorpse]

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how is there no belief in atheism?

edit: let me clarify, how can you say atheism lacks a belief? isn't it based on the belief that god does not exist?

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can you prove that believing in god is irrational?

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In any of situation the burden of proof relies on the person saying something IS a certain way.

If I tell you I have $100 dollars, the obligation is on me to show the hundred dollars. The objective of any statement is not to assume everything and disprove it one by one, but to observe the situations and build on what is or is not based on said observation.

And yes for most reasonable minds established deities can be disproven. A simple statistical observation of the number of deities in the past that have been discarded should lend favor to any non-theist belief.

[tarheeljks]

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Children don't need to be taught love and compassion; if anything, they should be teaching it to us.

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no, they are capable of exhibiting it, but have you ever heard the saying there is nothing as pure and as cruel as a child. they don't need to be taught to be hateful either, but they need to be taught that it is bad to do so.

[tarheeljks]

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The point was that your posts came off somewhat douchey. I don't even consider myself a devout Catholic, so I could give a crap about criticisms of the faith. But, I open up this thread to read what others have to say, because I find myself in a similar situation. Five posts or so in, you interject your opinion on Christianity being a fundamental lie. It added nothing to the discussion regarding the OP and was douchey...period.

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PRE asked a question:

"Religious beliefs aside, how could having your children be church-goers for the early part of their lives and then allowing them to make a choice when they're capable of doing so have any detrimental effects on them?"

Nath gave an answer. Can't see how that makes him douchey.

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i don't think he's a douche, but saying that "christianity is lies" added absolutely nothing to this discussion.

[PRE]

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taking children to church is child abuse

$0.02

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QFT

When you say atheists are as close minded as religious zealots, I'm inclined to point out the following, common, argument:


If I am someone you care about. Someone in your family. And I tell you there is a Golden Monkey in my backyard. Every night this Golden Monkey digs out, has a cup of tea with me, talks about what I should do to save the world, then goes back and buries himself by day. What would you say to me?

Assuming I was stable in all other regards you would want me to dig up this gold monkey and show you no?

If we dig up the whole back yard with nothing, yet I still persist, would you not question my sanity?

This is why atheists seem close minded. Essentially people of faith are daily saying there is an invisible entity in the sky in control of the entire universe, with no further backing than the statement “I believe.”


Raising children with religion (taking most western faiths) teaches them at the most impressionable time in their lives, that they should be adhering to a moral code printed in an endlessly translated and interpreted book, thousands of years old.

Detach and look at it; a freshly born child does not ascribe to any religion. They have to be taught faith. It is a social modification.

Just seems more sensible to teach children that the reality they have is theirs to enjoy and influence.

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The problem here is that you are automatically equating those who have some belief in religion with fundamentalist Christians who base everything on a literal interpretation of some book. There's a huge realm in between where most people who believe in religion fit in. Trust me, my beliefs have no impact on my complete faith in evolution, the scientific method and any other thing that you would call "rational." A strict athiest who equates religion with mental retardation (OP) is just as rigid in their "non-belief" as a fundamentalist Christian who believes that the world was created in 6 days.

As for the douchiness - you haven't seen anyone defend religion in this thread by suggesting that non-believers are morons, but there have been plenty of suggestions that those who have a religion are necessarily of lesser stock. Introducing children to the world that you grew up in (and seem to like enough to want to pass on) is in no way child abuse.

Aside, this whole debate proves my initial point which was that religious differences are a major (possibly insurmountable) obstacle, especially when children are involved.

As for my personal beliefs, I am a somewhat practicing Jew. I don't keep kosher, I don't keep the sabbath. My family gets together to go to synogogue to celebrate the major holidays and that has been a positive part of my life. I'm excited and proud to be raising my son in a similar environment to the one I grew up in. Other than that one part of me, I have more in common with the atheists/agnostics than I do with the religious fundamentalists. But the athiest/agnostic camp is all to happy to lump me in with the bible-beaters because it fits better with their simplistic black/white, I'm superior view of the world.

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I agree with most of the comments you made regarding the posters in this thread. If you don’t remember, my previously stated opinion was that making your child go to church wouldn’t have any negative consequences if you also raised that child in a strong family upbringing. The initial response I received from a few atheists, particularly nath, did come off as very condescending for no apparent reason. I quickly pointed out why his argument was somewhat flawed (he was treating a personal religious belief as if it was a fact that his children would automatically agree with) and the negative ton within his latter posts did fade a little. I decided to stop arguing, though, because it seemed like this thread was turning into a religion debate, which obviously is not what OP was looking for.

From what I’ve seen, it does seem like most of the atheists on this site come off as condescending and arrogant resulting from their strong stance. I’m not really sure why this is. Personally, I’m at a stage in my life where I don’t know what to believe religious-wise. I was raised Catholic and always had a hard time believing. While I know that I’ll never accept everything stated in the Bible, I’m having a tough time deciding on just whether or not there is any god out there. There are people who have devoted their entire lives to the search of God and were not able to find an answer. Similarly, there were people far smarter than anyone in this thread who did decide there was some sort of a god. To hear some of the posters in this thread state their religious beliefs without the slightest hint of humility, then, does come off as somewhat arrogant.

[Dilznoofus]

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The point was that your posts came off somewhat douchey. I don't even consider myself a devout Catholic, so I could give a crap about criticisms of the faith. But, I open up this thread to read what others have to say, because I find myself in a similar situation. Five posts or so in, you interject your opinion on Christianity being a fundamental lie. It added nothing to the discussion regarding the OP and was douchey...period.

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PRE asked a question:

"Religious beliefs aside, how could having your children be church-goers for the early part of their lives and then allowing them to make a choice when they're capable of doing so have any detrimental effects on them?"

Nath gave an answer. Can't see how that makes him douchey.

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i don't think he's a douche, but saying that "christianity is lies" added absolutely nothing to this discussion.

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OP wants opinions on how to deal with the prospect of marrying and having kids with a woman who wants her children to be brought up in the church. nath believes that sending kids off to church to be indoctrinated into a bogus belief system is a bad idea. How is this not relevant to the discussion, given that the OP himself is not religious and certainly seems doubtful about the value of sending his kids off to church?

I would think that's exactly the kind of input he would be looking for.

[Jayy]

I'm glad I came across this thread as I'm in a very similar position as the OP myself. TL;DR rant post coming up most likely, sorry.

My parents raised me without forcing me to goto church every time the doors were open, even though my mother was a die-hard Christian in her younger ages, although she doesn't attend now (more on that later). I've been to church on several occasions and even attended regularly for a period of times on end, due to certain events. I've been on both sides of the fence most of my life and this isn't something I share with many but feel as if this is a good opportunity to get a few things off my chest and contribute.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm a Christian, but I don't follow the book and I'm not quite literal as others are of the same belief. I'm very open-minded as far as religion goes, until others claim that I'm going to hell simply because I don't attend church very often or label me as something that I'm not because I don't 'follow the book' per say, then I just don't care to argue with those people because they are obviously ignorant of my belief, which is just that.. a belief that isn't any better or worse than the others that are out there, it's simply something I believe in.

I'm a college student, just turning 20 and in a 3 year relationship. Problem is, she is a little younger and slightly more naive than your average high school girl. Add in that her family are the definition of literal, by-the-book Christians, and you have yourself one close-minded girl that would flip out was she to read this thread, mainly because she has never been exposed this type of discussion.

A little background info... my town is small. Everyone knows everyone else and we all pretty much share the same beliefs, simply because we had went to church together from day one. My mother knows more about the Bible than most of my friend's parents that attend here, but she doesn't go because of the very reason that she hated being forced to goto Church. She got away from having to go around the age of 18, and while she broke away from her fundamental Christian habits, she picked up many values and morals in place.

Had I been forced to goto church at an early age, this post most likely would be completely different. I feel like a lot of it is nothing more than brainwashing for people in their younger ages when their learning the most, and it still is in even in their late teen ages. I agree with a lot posts that I've seen so far, but how to go about it in my situation is difficult. Me and her have been arguing on and off about religion for awhile now, and it doesn't help that her family spoon feeds her their beliefs day-to-day. She has already stated that if we were to have kids, that they were going to goto church with her and she would really appreciate it if I was to come along also. This ultimately ends in a bad argument where I want to tell her everything I've said here, but usually come up really short by just saying, "I can't promise anything, but I'll try to come." That usually buys me a couple of weeks until the argument comes full circle again. Awesome.


Obviously, this is an example of a relationship that isn't going to work out long-term because of religion. But it isn't something that I want to just get out of all of a sudden because 3 years is a good part of your life that you don't want to throw away if you can make something happen. There is something in the back of my mind that says she'll come through and understand things from a different point of view. I've tried to go with the flow and be a part of what she believes, but as someone else nicely put it, it's not what I'm hardwired to do. She isn't hardwired to believe what she does, that's just what she was 'programmed' to do by her parents... I as much as I want to show her what else is out there, I don't want to turn her against her parents. Not sure what to expect in the future, but I'm starting to think that it doesn't involve us being together; I'll see how it pans out.

Sorry for the long post.. just one of the few 2+2 threads I felt I could add my 0.02.

[Subfallen]

Jayy -

Here's a simple line of reasoning that just MASHES fundamentalists.

(1) Christian truth is in the spiritual domain; not the rational domain. When you say, "Jesus is the Lamb of God", you are saying something categorically different than when you say, "The sky as blue." (Cite 1 Cor 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth...")

(2) This means that spiritual Truth exists only in the consummation of a believer's experience through faith. The language we use to "point" to spiritual truth is just metaphors.

(3) Anyone who claims that a specific metaphor is more "literally" or "actually" true than another is expressing nothing less than CONTEMPT FOR THE HOLY, because he profanes the finality of the spiritual experience.

Do you see the idea: every time a fundamentalist interprets a religious doctrine in a literal sense, you mercilessly seize the upper hand by moving back into the "spiritual" realm and demanding reverence for the TRUE message of Christianity: the experience of internal transformation.

Above all, don't forget Kierkegaard's delightful phrasing: "Why, this is nothing less than contempt for the holy!" Widen your eyes, lift your eyebrows, breathe in sharply and hold for a deafening second.

You will quickly make the average fundamentalist Christian so gun-shy he'll hesitate to trot out even the tritest of his religious cliches. As a bonus, you will gain the reputation of an usually sincere and deep follower of Christ. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ConstantineX]

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I could never be in a longterm relationship with any girl who believes in this god nonsense.

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I'm an atheist, and I think fellow atheists are too quick to point out of the obvious, IMO costs of religion and never talk about the practical (NOT philosophical) benefits of religion.

Religion can't be a giant negative to the entire human race. There's has to be some advantage there if it's so persistent. It definitely helps you control and discipline your kids better, and I don't think its impractical to see that if you give them a "God" framework and transfer that framework to you as a head of the family it can make discipline alot easier.

I think one of the largest benefits of religion that people don't acknowledge is that it's an extrinsic motivator that really compels people when their motivation fails. I knew a couple of really indoctrinated kids in my high school who viewed success as expected by God, and it shocked and conditioned them through tough times. It's kind of that idea of the Protestant work ethic.

I'm not religious now, but I did go to church quite often when I was kid, and I think I would probably be a more successful person if some fear of God tempered me sometimes - it stops you from obvious self-destructive behavior. Also remember that some of our biggest failures come from putting too much pressure or expecting too much of ourselves, and the idea of a God can be a useful crutch in really tough times, i.e. "God help me pass this class, achieve this goal". Implicitly you're letting God shoulder some of your burden, and if you fail it's not due to your faults, but rather a part of his misty plan. All of these things psychologically are more useful than you admit to yourselves - there is a certain arrogance amongst the new atheists. Remember, the truth rarely feels good, often hurts, and never free - its only natural that we would evolve a cultural defense against it.

[Xibalba]

If I were to have kids, I wouldn't want them to be hardcore god-is-nonsense atheists.
That being said, I'd rather send them to Atheist Boot Camp than have them go to church week after week.