8r PS, pair+draw, flop plan limped pot fairly deepstked

[tomek322]

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yea ideally i would wanna find a way to push somewhere, rather on flop. but is raise/call ok?

other stuff ive been thinking of is callin flop and pushing over his lead on turn. that way i get to push atleast?

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When you call, I think he puts you on FD. It's like some auto-pilot poker player response. So if the turn bricks you are facing a big bet most of the time. I think it makes it harder to do, and decreases our FE. i.e. he is now getting more odds.

If you like gambling, raise call seems ok. I would assume you have 14 outs? 9 if he flopped bottom two.

[kurtkatt]

yeah, but on the other hand, a turn raise can be pretty scary also.., ill have enough to get him to fold also cause how deepstacked we are

i dont know, just feels like there has gotta be a better way to play it than raise/call while still planning to make use of some FE somewhere along the road.

[tomek322]

I did the call flop, raise turn play in the FTOPS against a competent player. On a T high board, with a massive combo draw. He said he mucked kings.

If you got the stones to shove it in there on a brick turn and you think he can fold. It's sick.

[4CardStraight]

I might like to stick in a good sized raise here. I really think this is quite a debatable hand. We are getting good odds to make a call, but I dont know thats best. We might be behind a better flush draw, and be playing for stacks with no outs. Sure were prolly not up against a hand like AK since there was no raise preflop, but its possible that SB decided to slow play a good ace and try to get several streets from bad hands. Depending on opponents and depending on my play up til this point, I would see this as a great chance and position to semi-bluff. If I stick in a big raise here, button is unlikely to play unless he has hit huge, since he is squeezed. SB can certainly call my raise and play out of position the rest of the hand, or shove if he has me crushed. If I bet and he calls, I probably get to see both cards, since he will be likely to check the turn to me and if I miss a club I can peel to the river, same if he donk bets small into me on the turn. My guess is he might have a hand like AT, and he certainly might have a better flush draw than me.

I would want to balance concerns here: Might SB reraise me with nothing here if i stick in a big raise? Might he flat call with a better flush draw and trap me for more bets on later streets? Might he payoff with top pair or two pair? he might have J9 with only one club and if I catch a flush he might make his straight and I could get his whole stack... Lots of risks abound.... with 9k already in the pot here and enough in stacks behind I think this is a very reasonable semi-bluff and I make it 13500. I probably fold to a push. I probably check behind the turn if he calls and I whiff. I probably fold if he bets pot if I whiff the turn. I probably call on the turn if he bets third pot.


4Card

[black666]

Why would we want to raise here? The button is still left to act and we would build a pot with a trouble-hand. What if we raise to 9K and button or SB calls? Turn is a blank and either SB fires again and we get gazillion odds for our entire stack or we play OOP against the button where every bet commits us. What if both call the raise? Now the pot is even bigger and we are getting odds to continue our draw.
And after we bust, we ask ourselves, why we played a big pot with a trouble hand [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Just call and reevaluate on the turn.

[kurtkatt]

one thing only we are actually ahead of a flushdraw just now since we have a small made hand also. im the gambling type so i got no problem with raise/calling per se. calling seems a bit weak since there isnt a big chance anyone got a hand worth playing for stacks so a raise on flop should win it a fair % times. but as i said before, the drawy board might make a Ax to just repush since he may think we semibluff a lot here..duuh...

as for the raise fold talk, we cant really do that can we. there is soo much money in the pot by then + the chance he repushes thing that we have 14 outs against?

gotta say i like pushing turn a lot more than raise/calling flop, or raise/folding. but its probably just fps. and it seems im a maniac that more or less just look for ways to get hte little chippies in, just prefferably while pushing myself..

[kurtkatt]

we want to raise cause the chance any villain has a hand that can play for stacks is pretty slim, further we have a hand that have a lot of ways to improve to the best hand while not being best now.

im a bit surprised at this discussion cause in my mind its more about how and when we should raise rather than if...