Those Darned Politics Mods!!!!!

[Kaj]

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I also morally recognize that the person who has earned the apple or own it, is more entitled to it than the next guy, all other things equal.

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Great, so you finally agree with this point and we can move on. I suggest we move it into politics forum where it belongs.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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arnfinn...any responses to this yet?

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1) I have possession of the apple. You have agreed to this.

2) You haven't demonstrated any entitlement to it.

What do you want?

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I have answered already, many times.

His possesion does not lead to ownership, the ownership of the apple is disputed already in point 1, he tries to present it as it isn't, but it is. The majority of people dispute that the apple is fully his as a result of being in his possession, so why isn't he asked to prove that he is entitled to the full apple? We are not arriving to point 2 with him having undisputed ownership of the apple thus at point 2 there is no one-sided burden of proof.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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He disputes the "possession" part. Just because you have the apple in your hand, doesn't mean it's your possession. Or so he says. In essence we may simply be "granted" public property, much like the Chinese are doing right now to preserve the guise of communism.

Or so Arnfinn thinks.

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A communist sees that Pvn has the apple, then takes it from him and when Pvn replies "it is my apple, I worked for this apple, I deserve it, the well-being of my family depend on it". The communist answers "Nobody is entitled to own private property, regardless of reason". Pvn responds "on what will you spend my valuable apple?" The communist replies i.e. "to build a 100 meter high statue in honor of our great caring leader". Pvn replies: "am I not more entitled to use the apple to repair the hole in my roof?". The communist responds: "nobody except the state is entitled to own any property, regardless of reason".

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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I also morally recognize that the person who has earned the apple or own it, is more entitled to it than the next guy, all other things equal.

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Great, so you finally agree with this point and we can move on. I suggest we move it into politics forum where it belongs.

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I have never in my whole life disagreed with this point and I have acknowledged it many times here. It is the total ownership regardless of conflicting values I don't accept as "evident". As he chooses to build most of his arguments on pretending this total ownership isn't disputed very few of his arguments holds water.

[Sniper]

Arnfinn,

At this point it doesn't matter who owns the apple... whoever has the apple better give it to Mike H, as a thanks for not locking this thread [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Arnfinn,

At this point it doesn't matter who owns the apple... whoever has the apple better give it to Mike H, as a thanks for not locking this thread [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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He realizes that ATF has to be the least modded forum on the site, if not the disagreements, complaints, frustrations etc. will just spill back into the forum in question and damage the actual forum. So I gladly give him a piece of the apple if it turns out to be mine [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[ShakeZula06]

Copy and pasted from Bunny's now locked thread-
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Based on different opinions wrt to your duties towards the community and your surroundings, different things can be justified or not. IMO, some of the tax you pay is morally correct and some is theft.


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Theft is still theft. Just because the robber is doing something you think is "morally correct" (subjective valuation, not fact) doesn't magically make it not theft. If Bob hold me at gunpoint, takes my wallet and donates to some charity, it's still theft. To think otherwise is of course, dogmatic.

Also, the last say on the whole apple ownership question-
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He doesn't need to [prove ownership]. By default he has his property. Action can be taken to take his property, but you must show that this action is justifiable. You must prove you are correct.

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Lastly, thanks a lot for hijacking this into a discussion on AC. Yet another example of a statist hijacking debates.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Lastly, thanks a lot for hijacking this into a discussion on AC. Yet another example of a statist hijacking debates.

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If I would play hardball I would hijack every single thread into this using different gimmick accounts, and Jman would end up banning you all out of frustration [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[AlexM]

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my point is more that I prefer open non-dogmatic debate, so I prefer a different debate than you make it into.

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You prefer debates where people don't have opinions? Is that even possible?

[AlexM]

You realize you've hijacked this thread with a political discussion, right? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]