oh crap, 19 left in full tilt 8.5ggrt

[kurtkatt]

full tilt 8.5k grrt tourney, 570 starters 19 left

ive been semiactive the past orbits raising once per orbit or so. villain the same. havent seen a hand from since he came like 30-45 mins ago. lots of raise reraise play.

blinds 2500/5000 ante 600(?) 6handed

stacks
villain utg 150k approx
me co 125k approx

villain raises to 15000k utg, standard raise, havent seen him raise utg before. mostly from mp/lp but we havent been 6-handed long.

i find aqoff in co. what to do? push? fold? call?

i called for some reason, like postion, being crushed if called and so forth. weak?

flop is q 5 3, 2 diamonds (q is diamond)

villain bets 35k into the 40k pot, seems like standard bet he has only played two flop ive seen made that bet both times and folded to push once and picking it up once.

i figure im WA/WB and call. dont like it but i was thinking i dont get away and dont want to push away hands i beat and be called by the others. what u think?

BUT then something happens...the king comes running on turn and he puts me all in, and i abandon all reason and convinces myself i should save the 70k i got left...

[rockin]

seems standard

[los_toros]

A r/r preflop puts a lot in preflop but you easily find out where you are. I do not play these situations correctly most of the time though. With no reads this smells like QQ+ ... villian isn't doing this with <JJ imo

Is the turn a diamond?

It's 6-handed and you have a premium hand.

[kurtkatt]

no black king

if i raise preflop i push.
my problem is i would put me on midpair very often with my line so i dont think jj tt is completely out of his range but u agree with a fold then.

[los_toros]

i'm more likely to push this preflop when it's 6 handed i guess ... as played we're very passive both preflop, postflop ... he took our action away by jamming on the turn so i would usually muck

if i call preflop, i like to get it allin on flop w/ only KK/AA beating me (given his range UTG)

[Dave D]

What's the buyin for this tourney?

I like the call PF. Any raise is probably going to have to be to 45k or more, that puts in 1/3 of your stack and there's no way you can just raise that without being committted to the hand. You'd have to push PF. I wouldn't mind doing that with AK, but I like calling here with AQ and just seeing what happens. Also, you have position on villian, so you can play post flop with him and see what develops. If the flop doesn't work out, you can just fold.

A call here can look really scary to villian, and looks way scarier than a push. After all, what kinds of hands flat call here? AA/KK/QQ and maybe AK. That way, we know villian fears you if he doesn't have AA-JJ, and can play it from there based on his actions. If the flop comes Axx or Qxx or Kxx and he slows down, now we know we're very likely to be good.

But villian shows a lot of confidence in his hand on the flop...

Like you said, that flop is pretty much either perfect for you, or perfect for him. What beats us here, AA/KK/QQ. I'd expect QQ to play this slow maybe, so I think we can discount that a little bit. Potting the flop is a pretty strong and fundamentally soundbet, it implies that villian is 1. thinking and 2. doesn't want the flush to come. He probably has a high pair here and doesn't wanna give free cards.

This is clearly a push or fold for me on the flop. Here's why:

You can't play this as a WA/WB b/c he's bet it too strongly, and you know that he's probably going to bet the next streets strong too (or even if he checks the turn, he's gonna put in some sort of value bet on the river if you check behind). Calling ~35% of your remaining stack is the worst thing you can do, both for your tournament life, and to win the hand.

The nice part about calling pf is that you can just say "I believe him that he has AA/KK", and go ahead and fold, losing only 3 blinds.

I think that in the tourneys I play, I'm likely to push back on the flop here. I think it's pretty likely that villian shows KK/AA a lot of the time too, so this really is a pretty tough hand.

[los_toros]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that in the tourneys I play, I'm likely to push back on the flop here. I think it's pretty likely that villian shows KK/AA a lot of the time too, so this really is a pretty tough hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thoughts Dave, I think that after posting about it a few times ... this would be the best line. Because a smallish PF r/r give him great odds and doesn't accomplish much.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that in the tourneys I play, I'm likely to push back on the flop here. I think it's pretty likely that villian shows KK/AA a lot of the time too, so this really is a pretty tough hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thoughts Dave, I think that after posting about it a few times ... this would be the best line. Because a smallish PF r/r give him great odds and doesn't accomplish much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but more importantly it leaves us in pretty ugly shape for basically no reason.

What if you reraise to like 45, and villian calls. Then the flop comes K35, or J93, or monotone with no A or Q, and villian pushes. We have to fold, and basically just gave away 1/3 of our stack.

Push or fold PF and it's the easiest part of the hand to figure out.

[los_toros]

yeah, i finally got that through my head, ty

[kurtkatt]

ok dave i like ur thinking and agree on most of it except the push flop thing. if im not gonna fold i like to call and call turn push too. only thing a flop push accomplish is that i fold out worse hands and get called by the better ones, its a 24 buy-in tourney i dont think jj tt gonna slow down because of the q and the call very often and i get to double up against those hands when he got them, even ak could push turn without the k hitting. (lotsa people not folding that hand). so my intention was call call until that card hit and i just couldnt make the call.

what do u think about that line?