Always being called down - advice on opening up game

AshleyC · #1 09-30-2007, 01:12 PM

I have been misisng flops alot the last few days and have been spewing money. I am continualy being called down light and had my c-bets c/raised, so I have really, really had to nail down and play like an uber-nit, like 14/12 today.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Button ($116.65)
Hero ($100.50)
BB ($99.30)
UTG ($123.70)
MP ($145.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises to $3.5, Hero raises to $12.5, 1 fold, Button calls $9.

Flop: ($26) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button calls $15.

Turn: ($56) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($56) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $20, Button calls $20.

Final Pot: $96

Button has 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (one pair, eights).
Hero has K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $96.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero ($99.50)
SB ($229.55)
BB ($124.30)
UTG ($19.50)
MP ($94.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $4.5, 2 folds, MP calls $3.50.

Flop: ($10.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $7.5, MP calls $7.50.

Turn: ($25.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: ($25.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $25.50

Results
Hero has 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP has 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: MP wins $25.50.

And it has seemed that nearly every hand that I have raised and c-bet has taken this pattern:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero ($114.50)
CO ($176.55)
Button ($105.80)
SB ($73)
BB ($30)
UTG ($92.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Button calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $7, Button raises to $22, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $37.50

Results:
No showdown. Button wins $37.50.

I'm finding it unprofitable to play any looser / more aggressive than I currently am. Even playing as I am, as you can see I seem to be getting 3 bet light from the blinds when I raise from Co/button enough so that raising any more would be -EV. Likewise, on flops I am called / floated / C/R enough so that I believe it would be -EV to open up any more. Playing like this is becomming a bit frustrating, as it is very card dependant, and I rely on running 'good' and hitting flops.

Is this just a variance issue, that villans have been hitting flops / running well against me? From some of the stats that I've read about, with people playing 24/22 etc I cannot really fathom how they do so, and how they overcome being played back at, and overcomming resistance.

Do you second barrell more?

Do you 4 bet bluff pre-flop, with what frequency / range?
I have done this once with 7s8s against a 55bb stack and he called with AJ.

Advice on this would be much appreciated.

AshleyC · #2 09-30-2007, 02:06 PM

Bump, please.

martijn · #3 09-30-2007, 02:09 PM

First hand I would definitely bet 20.

And when you are being called down light, isnt a logical countermeasure to get just very very tight, and valuebet thin?

Jonezycat · #4 09-30-2007, 02:40 PM

Seriously, when I'm being called down light I just wait for one good hand where I can two/three barrel and then open up my game from there.

Pomtidom · #5 09-30-2007, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero ($99.50)
SB ($229.55)
BB ($124.30)
UTG ($19.50)
MP ($94.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $4.5, 2 folds, MP calls $3.50.

Flop: ($10.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $7.5, MP calls $7.50.

Turn: ($25.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: ($25.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $25.50

Results
Hero has 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP has 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: MP wins $25.50.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I see stuff like this happen I always take a note: "C/c w/ 99 on ATx" and start 2nd barreling them a lot more. No way they are going to call 2 barrels with an underpair, and even if they do you make an other note and you decrease your cbetting frequency and take them to valuetown.

loosbastard · #6 09-30-2007, 03:42 PM

Your flop AF is insanely high. You're probably c-betting too much against the wrong boards/opponents. Otherwise your stats look fine, and there's no shame in nitting it up from time to time if everybody's calling you down light.

AshleyC · #7 09-30-2007, 03:54 PM

Hmmm just played a session since writing this OP:

I don't 2nd barrell much, but here goes:

Villan is 24/15, we are playing pretty aggro 4 handed.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (4 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($112.80)
Button ($157.25)
Hero ($100.50)
BB ($51.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button raises to $3.5, Hero raises to $12.5, 1 fold, Button calls $9.

Flop: ($26) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button calls $15.

Turn: ($56) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $35, Button calls $35.

River: ($126) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $126

Results
Hero has 9d Ac (one pair, fours).
Button has 7c 8c (two pair, eights and fours).
Outcome: Button wins $126.

In reply to whether I am continuation betting too much:

First action on flop after raise;

Bet 57%
Raise 4.35%
Call 3%
Check 29%
C/R 1%
Fold 6%
No flop/action 45%

Looking at these it seems insane that call is only 3%, which seems far too low. What are others similar stats for these?

LT22 · #8 10-01-2007, 01:24 PM

Bet 55%
Raise 3.42
Call 2.73
Check 34