WCOOP ME, Table chip leader in a tricky (?) spot UTG - Page 4

overthaline · #31 10-04-2007, 08:01 AM

I just don't understand how you went from calling preflop to set mine, then turning it into a post flop bluff. Just seems like you got yourself stuck into a good flop for your hand, then justifying your play by thinking he could fold an overpair.

PrayingMantis · #32 10-04-2007, 08:20 AM

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I just don't understand how you went from calling preflop to set mine, then turning it into a post flop bluff. Just seems like you got yourself stuck into a good flop for your hand, then justifying your play by thinking he could fold an overpair.

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First, I constantly do something for a certain reason PF, then turn my hand into something else on a later street, if I feel that circumstances dictate this. This is fairly standard, also in cash. Second, it wasn't a "good flop" for my hand in the way you mean it (i.e, that I have an over-pair), as I put him mainly on QQ-AA.

Now, I never said I'm calling with the plan to set mine only. Of course flopping a set is a big consideration, but there are more options, as I listed before, one of them for instance is leading into most A high flop. This could v well be +EV.

After the flop, I _did not_ plan on check raising him. I was v ready to c/fold. His bet feel however told me he is v uncomfortable with this spot. So I decided to rep a set.

registrar wrote earlier that I am not deep enough to represent a set, even if it's the "correct" line for doing so. I don't agree with it, and i think that it's just about the perfect deepness to do it here with a real chance of him folding, leaving himself with a 28BB stack. If we are deeper, the c/r ai might look less and less credible and more of some aggressive overbet (v deep of course it can't be a c/r all-in, but then there's 0 chance he actually folds the flop at all. Anyway if it were much deeper the whole hand is completely different).

stealthmunk · #33 10-04-2007, 08:25 AM

I stopped reading the replies when you proved to be delusional enough to think that villian would fold KK had flop come ten high AND rainbow.

PrayingMantis · #34 10-04-2007, 08:37 AM

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I stopped reading the replies when you proved to be delusional enough to think that villian would fold KK had flop come ten high AND rainbow.

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I might be delusional to think he ever folds KK on any non-ace flop, period. But tell me why ten high AND rainbow is not better for my delusional self than ten high with TWO DIAMONDS. I think the first is better for this donkish move.

registrar · #35 10-04-2007, 08:47 AM

Obviously the fewer draws the better but then check-raising is probably worse. If you really want tp pursue that approach, which still isn't going to work anywhere near enough IMO, then it's an aggressive check-call in the hope that he checks behind on the turn and then shove the river. This also gives you the chance to spike an A or a J. But, I repeat, don't try this at home kids.

PrayingMantis · #36 10-04-2007, 08:53 AM

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Obviously the fewer draws the better but then check-raising is probably worse. If you really want tp pursue that approach, which still isn't going to work anywhere near enough IMO, then it's an aggressive check-call in the hope that he checks behind on the turn and then shove the river. This also gives you the chance to spike an A or a J. But, I repeat, don't try this at home kids.

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I was thinking about this briefly but decided to try and make him do a "hero fold" right there. If there was anyone at the table "capable" of doing it I think it was him. I was wrong. However I don't think anyone in this thread put him on the right percentage of folds, I get from him here. It's a tough estimation to do, but I think it's an important one, because not doing so is another symptom of being results oriented.

registrar · #37 10-04-2007, 08:59 AM

I dunno maybe you're right. I always assume everyone plays like me and I'm just not folding. If an ace flopped, I'm still not folding to one bet. The whole point of MTT poker in my little world is that the big stack makes terrible calls and sucks out and then I feel worthy and broke. Other guys fold. But I think KK only folds when an ace flops. I think if the flop bothers him in some other way, he'll bet more at it most of the time and spite price himself in.

stealthmunk · #38 10-04-2007, 09:00 AM

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I stopped reading the replies when you proved to be delusional enough to think that villian would fold KK had flop come ten high AND rainbow.

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I might be delusional to think he ever folds KK on any non-ace flop, period. But tell me why ten high AND rainbow is not better for my delusional self than ten high with TWO DIAMONDS. I think the first is better for this donkish move.

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Villian probably isn't a thinking player, its the WCOOP ME.
Villian doesn't think about flush draws being in your range (irrelevant anyway)
Villian isn't folding KK, ever.
Making a plan that involves your opponent folding an overpair on a rainbow non-connected flop in a tourney like the sunday million is just really, really, bad. It never happens.

PrayingMantis · #39 10-04-2007, 09:14 AM

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Making a plan that involves your opponent folding an overpair on a rainbow non-connected flop in a tourney like the sunday million is just really, really, bad. It never happens.

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100% agree that it's a very bad move on the sunday million, regardless of anything you think you know about the opponent. However, The WCOOP ME played _completely_ different from the sunday million, and villain here was the exact kind of player you could put a lot of pressure on in this MTT.

Not the same thing, but for instance, there was another player I played with in this event, earlier, who I raised/called a rr pf, and he checked behind AA 3-streets on some K high flop. I suspected AA and didn't make any move at the pot. He obviously just wanted to get this hand over with, so he won't have to put himself in any kind of tough spot with a hand people bust with so often... like the awful AA.

I disagree with you about "villain isn't folding KK, ever". My move might very well be -EV, but this particular opponent could bring himslef, IMO, to fold KK (for all the wrong reasons, that is) at least 25% of the time.

XXsooted · #40 10-04-2007, 09:50 AM

PM, the hand seems to be more read-dependant than anything since you're claiming this guy folds an overpair way more than anybody I've ever seen, especially considering that you've been active in recent hands.
One thing to consider is that if the players on your table are really playing this weak and you have strong reads on them you probably want to err on the side of caution when it comes to marginal decisions for a large percentage of your stack.