Basic reasons for why reraising SC, PPs is better

[ahnuld]

Posted this on another poker forum. I want to make sure there arent any main arguments im missing. The situation is a decent player raising from the button in 400nl to 1000nl and you have a PP or SC in the bb. This is probably way to basic for our forum but its a post-linecheck if you will.

"2nd poster, you are right that he will stop stealing your blinds so much. But you make the mistake of thinking we want a call when we reraise 3 times his raise (I prefer 3.3-3.8 timex but wtv.) The strength of the play is the fold equity. We are basically making a semi bluff with hands that can flop big (but normally wont). We are hoping for a fold.

The main reasons why calling is wrong against opponents I described is that their opening range is just too big for calling with suited connectors and small pairs to be profitable. If we plan of folding when we miss, it is almost impossible to make back the 16bb we need postflop to break even when we do hit. Hes raising with too much crap to pay off because normally he wont have a hand. Now you can then say "ok, so well call and play back when we miss". Well there is a problem with that too. When we play back light we are OOP and a decent player will be able to take advantage of position enough to make it extremly hard for us. We end up playing big pots when he is storng, and small ones when he is weaker.

So to negate all those advantages, yet not give in to constant stealing, the better play is to normally reraise pre. This semibluff also works to get you action on your real hands and slows him down. Now sometimes you'll have to play big pots OOP when he flat calls, so there will still be problems, but its generally better to reraise for the reasons mentioned above."

[wpr101]

Yeah, reraising is fine. Button has a loose range and will fold a lot.

Say he does call, you fire a cb and take it down often.

I'm pretty sure the 3b is +EV by itself. The cb is probably +EV taken alone also.

You bring up an excellent point about getting action. The more we do this the better for when we have a big hand. This is how you end up stacking someone with bottom two pair when the flop comes 56Q and he is holding AQ.

One more point. Calling OOP with a low pp thinking that you can outplay the button is a really bad idea, unless the button is a huge fish.

[JKratzer]

you pretty much nailed it.

[TheJared]

[ QUOTE ]
Now you can then say "ok, so well call and play back when we miss". Well there is a problem with that too. When we play back light we are OOP and a decent player will be able to take advantage of position enough to make it extremly hard for us. We end up playing big pots when he is storng, and small ones when he is weaker.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the general context of the post. However, isn't the above also true in a 3-bet pot as well? What I mean by this, is there really a difference between inflating the pot size OOP with mediocre hands preflop and postflop? We are still going to face playback from good players in both situations. The reason we reraise is because stack sizes limit our opponents manueverability postflop. Right? What am I missing?

[DoGGz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now you can then say "ok, so well call and play back when we miss". Well there is a problem with that too. When we play back light we are OOP and a decent player will be able to take advantage of position enough to make it extremly hard for us. We end up playing big pots when he is storng, and small ones when he is weaker.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the general context of the post. However, isn't the above also true in a 3-bet pot as well? What I mean by this, is there really a difference between inflating the pot size OOP with mediocre hands preflop and postflop? We are still going to face playback from good players in both situations. The reason we reraise is because stack sizes limit our opponents manueverability postflop. Right? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your 3betting range includes all sorts of monster hands, where your calling range most likely does not.

[kalur]

I think the reasoning to re-raise SC/PP is correct, assuming that you will only 3bet or fold all other hands as well, otherwise your calling hands will be left in a very tough position.

Given that your opponent is abusing the button it is EV+ to 3bet with 15%-20% of your range (including SC, PP) from BB, because of the fold equity.

Tougher question is where is the point when button is opening too many hands. Or in other words, what is the button's PFR% starting from which 3betting with PPs/SCs from big blind is EV+ (given that the button is decent). Probably it's around 25-35%.

Of course, the higher the button's PFR% the bigger range you can 3bet EV+ from BB.

[TheJared]

[ QUOTE ]


Your 3betting range includes all sorts of monster hands, where your calling range most likely does not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously if we are cold calling from the BB with SC, SPs we have to do it with our big hands as well. Having a wide range with either cold calls or 3-bets is key to making either successful.

Is this a case of, we should 3-bet all our hands or cold call all our hands? I always felt like if you 3-bet with your big hands and cold called with your medium strength hands you got into a ton of trouble after the flop.

I'm sure people are going to reply with "well you have to mix up your game etc..." But the question I guess I have is what hands can we profitably cold call with assuming we want to 3-bet our big hands, and how do we mix up our game in such a fashion that we are creating the most +EV situations OOP.

[xorbie]

i cc from the blinds with pp, sc and occasionally AK, QQ+ from time to time. there's no reason to play these hands strictly for set/power hand value, since almost no button v blind hands go to showdown.

[ahnuld]

[ QUOTE ]
i cc from the blinds with pp, sc and occasionally AK, QQ+ from time to time. there's no reason to play these hands strictly for set/power hand value, since almost no button v blind hands go to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

flat calling 22-55 from the blinds is almost impossible to be +EV vs any competent player

[DoGGz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Your 3betting range includes all sorts of monster hands, where your calling range most likely does not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously if we are cold calling from the BB with SC, SPs we have to do it with our big hands as well. Having a wide range with either cold calls or 3-bets is key to making either successful.

Is this a case of, we should 3-bet all our hands or cold call all our hands? I always felt like if you 3-bet with your big hands and cold called with your medium strength hands you got into a ton of trouble after the flop.

I'm sure people are going to reply with "well you have to mix up your game etc..." But the question I guess I have is what hands can we profitably cold call with assuming we want to 3-bet our big hands, and how do we mix up our game in such a fashion that we are creating the most +EV situations OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, and the 3 betting all of our hands will give us more expectation then calling, therefore we raise instead of call.

This goes out the window abit in deepstacked situations.