Donk Bet Defense Theory

[vizer02]

I have been getting donk bet into a ton at 100 NL on Full Tilt lately. A donk bet is when I am the preflop raiser and the OOP caller leads into me on the flop, usually with a smallish bet but sometimes a PSB. My question/theory applies to when I am holding missed overcards or an underpair/middle pair, not a flush/straight draw, overcards, or made hand.

This issue gets even more complicated because I think you have to consider the villain's stack size and stats before deciding what to do. I feel that if the villain has a 20-49 BB stack, regardless of stats I don't think it is profitable to reraise their donk bet. By the time they donk bet they have at least 25% of their stack in the pot already, and I doubt I can get them to fold. On the flipside, if villain has 50-100+ BB stack and they donk bet into me, I believe stats come into play. If villain is looser preflop, I am more likely to raise their donk bet than if villain is tighter.

I see donk bets used a lot in live play, and I think it is migrating more and more to online play. I believe 'donk bet' is a good name for this type of bet though, because it is most often the very bad players that make this type of bet. This makes me wary about raising their bet however, because some of these players are willing to take tpnk or mptk to showdown. This is where Went to SD percentages come into play. If they are high, I'm not even going to bother raising with air.

If I get donk bet into by a reg that I recognize as a good player, I usually instamuck because when I donk bet into a raiser I am usually holding either a set or combodraw, and I would assume the reg is doing something similar.

So here are some examples of player types/stack sizes and what I do, your thoughts?


<font color="red"> 1.) Villain has about a 50-75 BB stack, and is 47/8/1.18</font>

SB: $34.50
BB: $171.50
UTG: $72.35
UTG+1: $133.55
MP1: $49.00
Hero (MP2): $98.50
CO: $132.00
BTN: $115.20

Preflop: Hero is dealt Qh Ad (8 Players)
UTG calls $1.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50) 8s 6d Td (2 Players)
UTG bets $7.00, Hero raises to $22.50, UTG calls $15.50

Turn: ($55.50) Kh (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $46.00, UTG folds

<font color="red"> 2.) Villain has a 110 BB stack and is a 38/15/3</font>

SB: $110.85
BB: $37.35
UTG: $49.40
UTG+1: $62.60
Hero (MP1): $107.45
MP2: $30.40
CO: $22.60
BTN: $27.90

Preflop: Hero is dealt Ac Jd (8 Players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 3 folds, SB calls $3.00, BB folds

Flop: ($8) 7s 5s Kc (2 Players)
SB bets $4.00, Hero raises to $16.00, SB folds

<font color="red"> 3.) Villain has a 27BB stack and is a 14/7/2</font>

SB: $27.25
BB: $96.50
Hero (UTG): $118.05
UTG+1: $111.05
MP1: $28.05
MP2: $96.50
MP3: $43.60
CO: $36.40
BTN: $232.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt Ac Kh (9 Players)
Hero raises to $3.50, 6 folds, SB calls $3.00, 1 fold

Flop: ($8.00) 7h 8c Th (2 Players)
SB bets $6.00, Hero folds

<font color="red"> 4.) Villain is a decent reg who has a 80 BB stack and is a 18/9/3</font>

SB: $110.15
BB: $94.20
UTG: $25.05
UTG+1: $70.75
MP1: $38.50
MP2: $239.30
MP3: $103.25
CO: $78.25
Hero (BTN): $99.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt As Qc (9 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.00, 3 folds, CO calls $1.00, Hero raises to $5.50, 3 folds, CO calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.50) 9h 5s 8h (2 Players)
CO bets $5.00, Hero folds

[solvine]

i agree that it is very opponent dependent. Also it depends on board texture i find. If board has a draw out there with no A or K on flop then this is not a bad spot to raise a loose player.Most people will put you on AK when the board is ragged. but if you are getting lead into on a A high dry board then the opposite applies.

How come you decided to push on hand 1 on the turn and not check behind and get a free card, seeing he called your raise on the flop?

[vizer02]

I pushed the turn because he was obviously weak on the flop, probably on a draw. No way he flat calls with a set or straight, and I figured the K on the turn was a good card to bluff with anyhow.

[Mike Kelley]

Okay, if I add wtsd% to my pokerace hud.... What am I looking for? What's high and what's low?

[vizer02]

A WTSD percentage of 20-25% is considered low, or what most good players average. 26% and higher is considered high, and these are the ones I wouldn't reraise their donk bet with. Players with 30% and high take hands to showdown that they should've folded.

[xxrod17xx]

[ QUOTE ]
A WTSD percentage of 20-25% is considered low, or what most good players average. 26% and higher is considered high, and these are the ones I wouldn't reraise their donk bet with. Players with 30% and high take hands to showdown that they should've folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this information 100%. People above 30% are people you really want to make sure your value bet and below i like to be more careful with.

Also OP thanks for this since I do play at 10NL and every time I raise I am donkey bet into.

[seki]

What percent of the time are you going to make the turn bet in the first hand? I recently reviewed some of my older sessions and found this move (along with excessive 2nd barrelling) to be a leak for my game. Then again, I'm playing a couple of levels lower where players don't have fold buttons.

[Ctrl.Dominate]

What do you do in hands 3 and 4 if you have a high pocket pair instead? Can you really just instamuck those hands?

[vizer02]

[ QUOTE ]
What percent of the time are you going to make the turn bet in the first hand? I recently reviewed some of my older sessions and found this move (along with excessive 2nd barrelling) to be a leak for my game. Then again, I'm playing a couple of levels lower where players don't have fold buttons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not make a turn bet like that too often, but I would say maybe 25% of the time if I'm unimproved, based upon the flop texture though. Usually if the flop is very drawy and a blank comes on the turn, I will fire again for about the pot size. I am fairly confident based upon villain's flop play that he is on a draw if he just flat calls my c-bet. The other option is that he has a vulnerable overpair, say 10,10 on a 4h,7h,9c flop, and his initial donk bet was a blocking bet. One thing to note also when firing a second barrel like that is that an overcard on the turn will often improve your chances of taking the pot down if you show no fear that it hit.

[vizer02]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do in hands 3 and 4 if you have a high pocket pair instead? Can you really just instamuck those hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: I go ahead and instapush. The difference between the overpair and overcards is that I at least have some showdown potential with an overpair versus overcards, and this hand is going to showdown I would say 90% of the time.

Hand 2: I would repop his donk bet to about 18.50 and fold to a push. If he calls I'm done with the hand unless I improve.