An “Only in LA” Story - The Dealer Stall and the $1 pot!

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Any rake/drop based on pot size is definitely illegal under current California law. But I believe you can get around this a bit by triggering the drop on an event not directly related to pot size. If you feel you need to take the full drop all at once, I'd make that trigger a called bet post flop. But it may be possible to take the drop in pieces (e.g., a called bet post flop takes half the drop, a second called bet takes the other half). The Normandie actually did something like this a few years ago.


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I know I’m kind of reviving an old thread here but I’ve seen Rick talk a number of times about how to improve LA rake and I just had a thought that might help. At Ocean’s 11 they have a separate low limit room with 1/1NL and 2/4 limit. They have the standard CA auto rake except that they don’t take any drop, other than the jackpot, until the pot reaches $7. So if 4 people limp in the 1/1 game and check it down to the river, no drop is taken.

This contradicts what you said above and I’m not sure whether what they are doing can be structured legally or if they are simply doing it anyway. I believe it's been set up this way for a while though so I would tend to think it's legit.

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Interesting. I've been down to Ocean's 11 a few times lately playing the bigger games. Next time I go I'll have to check the small room out and see for sure. If it is a drop based on pot size, then it will be the first time I've seen it since 1987-1989 (the 5/10 holdem drop trigger was $30 back then, although they took the jackpot drop of $2 before the hand began).

Generally, inside LA County things have always been enforced more strictly. For example, in 1995 Hollywood Park tried a "live" button drop (drop counted toward a call or raise) but when the LA Sheriff came back from vacation he made it a dead button drop.

At times I think card club owners/managers could fight the LA Sheriff's narrow interpretation of CA law and come up with a better system. At the same time I believe they may be sort of happy with the way things are and simply don't realize how much they lose when very small action pots are raped by a full drop.

~ Rick

[Dennisa]

Its brutal, I get dealt in on the cutoff at the hustler 3/6. I have a cnote behind and its all folded to me. I have ace ten and certainly dont want the button in for cheap, so stupid me decides to open raise it hoping to pick up the three dollar single big blind. Blind defends, ugh 4 dollar drop. I hit an ace, bet the flop, Ronique comes around to scan my players club card and the next thing I notice the dealer is pushing me the two dollar pot. That SOB by defending his blind cost me a buck. I tell the dealer that I cant afford to tip 50% of the pot and she then rolls her eyes at me. I just started playing in the clubs as a backup if the ban gets worse. I think the table nits thought I was a fish for the two rounds I did play there as did make 1/2 a rack in 15 minutes there open raising and hitting top pair.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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...Ronique comes around to scan my players club card and the next thing I notice...

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If Ronique is the table scanner I'm thinking of then its understandable you didn't notice anything else until your -$1 pot was pushed. So in a way you got your money's worth. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Seriously, as mentioned elsewhere, the Hustler's one blind system on the small games was in all likelihood the by-product of implementing a suggestion from a daytime nit "to keep the cost per round down". But it hurts the action in general and makes the drop system go upside down in these sorts of situations.

You need to play a bit bigger and in better action games to stand any chance at all. Try 4/8 games in clubs with two blinds. Good luck.

~ Rick

[dbldwnblue]

I work at CP and have had many times where I have had to toss a $1 pot to the winner. I feel like crap when I do it but most of the time there are enough people (or the people that are in the hand know what is going on and have either fallen asleep at the wheel or are playing for the JP). When I first started working there I used to ask if the players wanted to chop if it got down to just the BB and SB before the flop. This was before I was reprimanded by an employee for doing this. I looked at it as protecting "my" players in the game and it gave me a good feeling that most of the time they appreciated it.

One thing i have discovered at Hustler on their NL games is that they do a staggered drop. This being taking the JP drop pre-flop. $3 on the flop and then another $1 on the river. (I personally think that a $5 total drop is excessive for a $1-2 NL game but thats just me).

CP has done some very good things such as starting a progressive JP for paying quads or better (4 of a kind starting at $50 each, a straight flush at $100 and a royal at I think $200 increasing each day it is not hit) with the highest being $1700 for a royal flush that was hit last month. They have also brought back the discounted/free rooms which is also a good thing.

There are many things that seem to me that CP could do very good. And there are others that I have to scratch my head (such as not having ANY perminate poker floorpersons). Im hoping that they figure out some of these glitches as more business affects my bottom line. So come and stop by and see me... I would love to see everyone.

[Jauron]

Nice story.

[frommagio]

Thanks for refreshing this wonderful thread. Loved the story
a year ago, and it's great to read it again!

[RarocASP]

3 bet PF, fold to a shove

c/f flop is fine as played

[Diana Ross Fan]

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Had no clue LA raake system is soo bad

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It's worse. Hollywood park is a $4 rake and $1 JP rake for 3/6. Others are $3 rake and $1 JP rake for 3/6 or 4/8.

And they all take at least $1 even if you chop.



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In the midwest, they take 5$ plus a 1$ jp drop from the 3/6 games. Granted it is 10% rake, and they don't rake a blind steal.

[RR]

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Had no clue LA raake system is soo bad

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It's worse. Hollywood park is a $4 rake and $1 JP rake for 3/6. Others are $3 rake and $1 JP rake for 3/6 or 4/8.

And they all take at least $1 even if you chop.



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In the midwest, they take 5$ plus a 1$ jp drop from the 3/6 games. Granted it is 10% rake, and they don't rake a blind steal.

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The oppressive collection is one of the reasons the games are so much better in LA. The sort of players that find themselves in games where it is folded to a blind stealer don't/can't play.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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One thing i have discovered at Hustler on their NL games is that they do a staggered drop. This being taking the JP drop pre-flop. $3 on the flop and then another $1 on the river. (I personally think that a $5 total drop is excessive for a $1-2 NL game but thats just me).

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If this is true they really didn't stagger the drop; instead they increased the drop by a buck if the river is reached. Still that's a high drop for a 1-2 blind game with a small spread or fixed buyin.

The Commerce and Bike* have done this too (dropping one more buck on the river) on the somewhat higher stakes games I play. Since the pots are usually much bigger by the river this drop increase is hardly noticed by most players. So in a sense it's a good way to increase drop (given that drops are inevitably going to increase as clubs run near capacity in a somewhat inflationary environment)

[* I believe the Bike goes as far as taking an extra buck if there is an uncalled turn raise.]

That said...

...most of understand that in California the card clubs cannot take a percentage of the pot with a cap. But if they can drop $3 or $4 on a flop and an extra $1 on the river why doesn't a forward thinking club struggling for business (hint: Normandie, Crystal Park, The Bike) take the next step and take the drop in pieces triggered by streets or even better called action? For example in the case of a $4 total drop $2 could be taken on the flop; $1 on the turn and $1 on the river. Or $2 could be taken on the flop and the other $2 taken on any called bet post flop.

A club like Commerce can take the drop up front since they have an ocean of games at just about every limit. In other words if a table of customers are playing a smallish tight game and notice many small pots with the relatively huge drops the players disperse into the looser games via table changes. But at Crystal Park, The Normandie and to a lessor extent The Bike, Hustler, and Hollywood Park this isn't so easy (since there aren't as many games).

I may be repeating (or to be kind "putting another twist on") something I already mentioned in this thread. If so I apologize. I've certainly discussed these issues in several threads here and in the old days on rec.gambling.poker; for this I don't apologize and plan to continue. The message of the need for an improved drop simply has to get out as business won't always be booming and the games will tighten up.



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There are many things that seem to me that CP could do very good. And there are others that I have to scratch my head (such as not having ANY perminate poker floorpersons). Im hoping that they figure out some of these glitches as more business affects my bottom line. So come and stop by and see me... I would love to see everyone.

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It's tough to keep good floor and dealers when business is so slow. But for a fun sort of relaxing change of pace I recommend the CP rebuy tournaments every night but Thursday at 7:00pm (you can start as much as 90 minutes late). The original buying is $30 but understand that you need to take maximum add-ons and rebuys so its really about an $80 to $140 tournament. The staff including Dan, Henri and others are excellent and they get a decent "goofy fun" crowd.

~ Rick