STTF SNG->cash thread

[blackize]

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But, if ur not raising those, ur not raising SCs, med. to weak suited As, offsuite As. So, it reduces an already every tight UTG range by 2.3%. Which is, in fact, a decent percent of your range.

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I think raising SCs and suited aces UTG is much better than 22-55 since you'll more often flop hands you can double barrel or try to take to showdown. I really don't think it will make much difference since most people aren't paying attention anyway. And the ones who are will need thousands of hands to figure out that you're a nit UTG

[DevinLake]

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But, if ur not raising those, ur not raising SCs, med. to weak suited As, offsuite As. So, it reduces an already every tight UTG range by 2.3%. Which is, in fact, a decent percent of your range.

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Just it case it is not clear, what I've been talking about and what follows is based on 6max.

I think raising SCs and suited aces UTG is much better than 22-55 since you'll more often flop hands you can double barrel or try to take to showdown. I really don't think it will make much difference since most people aren't paying attention anyway. And the ones who are will need thousands of hands to figure out that you're a nit UTG

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I disagree unless when talking about SCs you are talking about broadway SCs. Medium and small SCs do not have a lot of showdown value. They have big hand value.

You are not going to flop too many more big hands with SCs than you are with PPs.

PPs flop a set or better 12% of the time and in heads up pots don't need to improved to win.

SCs flop a flush draw like 10% of the time, a straight draw 12% of the time. So, floping some sort of combination draw that includes a straight, flushdraw and/or a pair isn't going to happen much more often than a set. (can someone find the numbers? I couldn't find a website that had them.)

The thing is, with SCs you are going to be looking to flop draws mostly and you will mostly be playing these OOP.

Playing draws OOP is not fun, playing a set is.

Also, I don't see the connection between SCs and double barreling. I double barrel based on the strength of my hand and my opponent, the flop and the turn.

Double barreling just because you have a draw and outs, isn't that appealing. When I don't have a hand, I double barrel when the board is so drawy they can't have strong hand if they just flated the flop, if a scare card hits on the turn, and/or the player calls a lot of c-bets and gives up a lot on the turn. This does not depend on the two cards I hold.

Otherwise, I double barrel with my strong hands.

Also, if I'm double barreling with my draws oop, it's usually not with the complete intention of getting them to fold. I usually try to price my draw, and can fold if I get shoved on. (this is usually agasint aggro players. Against a pasive player I'll c/c or c/f depending on the price)

And all this discussion is simply based on the actual value of the hand being discussed. It doesn't account for the added value AA gets when you have all these other hands in your range.

FWIW, I've seen a drastic change in my results since opening my game up. I was playing something like 20/18. Now I'm more like 27/22. People get out of ur way more. They might try to stand up to you a couple times, but if you play back at them with any frequency, most give up and just play standard TAG against you. Some may continue to try to adjust, but most adjust very poorly.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But, if ur not raising those, ur not raising SCs, med. to weak suited As, offsuite As. So, it reduces an already every tight UTG range by 2.3%. Which is, in fact, a decent percent of your range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising SCs and suited aces UTG is much better than 22-55 since you'll more often flop hands you can double barrel or try to take to showdown. I really don't think it will make much difference since most people aren't paying attention anyway. And the ones who are will need thousands of hands to figure out that you're a nit UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this argument is fundamentally flawed for at least 2 reasons. Reason 1 is that it is hard to get to showdown when OOP, showdowns are rare, and mainly that there is no inherent advantage to getting to a showdown in NL cash games. Second and probably more important is that profits from valuebetting strong hands are much more important than profits from bluffing in most games. But most people bluff too much. Remember that when you bluff you win just the pot, but when valuebets get called you get paid up to 2x the pot.

[DevinLake]

Only one person responded to my hand [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

It was readless, everyone should take a shot...

Anyway, when some one donks this type of flop on me, I have a very difficult time not raising almost my entire range. Maybe not my strongest hands, cause I feel this donk is weak and usually can't stand a raise.

Anyway, here's how the hand played.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($614.60)
Button ($581)
SB ($573.75)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($355.60)</font>
UTG ($407.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($449.90)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $16</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $55</font>, BB calls $39.

Turn: ($140) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($140) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $84</font>, Hero calls $84.

Final Pot: $308

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 7s Ad (one pair, fives).
Hero has 4c 4d (two pair, fives and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins $308. </font>

[microbet]

Devin,

I hear what your saying about shania. I think there's a lot of "it depends" on balancing things like this.



Regarding your hand, I find a lot of donk bets are weak hands, but it's not that rare that I note someone for donking a strong hand.

Readless I would generally be weak here, but after some history/reads I will sometimes be raising the flop like that. I think it's close though. He only has to fold 1/2 the time and it may well be a good play without any read.

The river is also close. You are almost getting 3 to 1, so it's not like you have to be right a lot. It's pretty damn hard to put him on what he had so maybe there's something to just calling because there are a lot of things that happen that make you say "wtf?". On the other hand, against another opponent, people might be saying "wtf?" about you in this hand.

If I could take you back in time to when he donk bet the flop and told you he'd call your raise with his entire donking range would you still raise?

[DevinLake]

[ QUOTE ]
If I could take you back in time to when he donk bet the flop and told you he'd call your raise with his entire donking range would you still raise?

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Well, obviously that depends on what his donking range is. Are monsters in his donking range? Are medium strength hands? Or just air and draws?

If he A7o is at the bottom of his range and he donks his entire range, I should be raising:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.965% 50.12% 00.84% 161264 2715.00 { 4c4d }
Hand 1: 49.035% 48.19% 00.84% 155056 2715.00 { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }

When the bet the river, I was like 'zomg hearts, call.'. When he turned over the cards... 'wtf?'.

I can't imagine what he was thinking on the flop.

[costanza_g]

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No reads. I just joined table or he did.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

CO ($614.60)
Button ($581)
SB ($573.75)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($355.60)</font>
UTG ($407.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($449.90)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $16</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $55</font>, BB calls $39.

Turn: ($140) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($140) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $84</font>, Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold the flop!

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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? explain yourself

I do agree with folding on the river though.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
No reads. I just joined table or he did.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

CO ($614.60)
Button ($581)
SB ($573.75)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($355.60)</font>
UTG ($407.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($449.90)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $16</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $55</font>, BB calls $39.

Turn: ($140) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($140) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $84</font>, Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the flop raise without a read because when you get calld you're pretty much screwed most of the time. I'd rather have KQ or something with 6 outs to improve. I don't mind calling the flop (especially with a read), although against an unknown I fold a lot. Just too hard to play this without at least some idea of what he's donking on this flop.

[DevinLake]

How do you guys play 76 on that flop? Also, if you flat call how do you play not knowing what a scare card is?

[GtrHtr]

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But, if ur not raising those, ur not raising SCs, med. to weak suited As, offsuite As. So, it reduces an already every tight UTG range by 2.3%. Which is, in fact, a decent percent of your range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising SCs and suited aces UTG is much better than 22-55 since you'll more often flop hands you can double barrel or try to take to showdown. I really don't think it will make much difference since most people aren't paying attention anyway. And the ones who are will need thousands of hands to figure out that you're a nit UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this argument is fundamentally flawed for at least 2 reasons. Reason 1 is that it is hard to get to showdown when OOP, showdowns are rare, and mainly that there is no inherent advantage to getting to a showdown in NL cash games. Second and probably more important is that profits from valuebetting strong hands are much more important than profits from bluffing in most games. But most people bluff too much. Remember that when you bluff you win just the pot, but when valuebets get called you get paid up to 2x the pot.

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This is a great post, thanks Isura.