All of this christian bashing is so ignorant and stupid.

[livecards]

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there is no "official" interpretation of the bible (unfortunately? probably fortunately).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well... different sects/churches believe they have the correct interpretation. These differences have led to many schisms.

Personally, the fact that the Bible is so unclear and open to interpretation is further evidence AGAINST the Christian conception of God. Most decent writers could write a less confusing, contradictory and irrational book. Certainly the Christian God could deliver a message so clearly that we humans wouldn't all interpret it differently. And if understanding his word is so important, he'd certainly make it more clear.

That's my take at least.

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but yes, i will agree with you that the bible (and christianity) is very VERY open to debate and interpretation. I don't see how this is always a bad thing.

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Not always... but bad often enough to be problematic. Can I have slaves or not? Do I need to spend my life hating gays? Should I kill heretics or not? Are women allowed to speak in Church or is this blasphemous?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot understand the difficulty in understanding this line of thinking that Kurto provided. Considering the importance of the message one would think GOD would make the message very clear. I'm sure a response will be "it was written by men" then GOD should have required a few rough drafts and he should have edited it before publishing. I'm really interested in Christians response to Kurto's original post (I'm still reading the thread so maybe I will). Tell me how you reconcile this with your faith.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
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there is no "official" interpretation of the bible (unfortunately? probably fortunately).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well... different sects/churches believe they have the correct interpretation. These differences have led to many schisms.

Personally, the fact that the Bible is so unclear and open to interpretation is further evidence AGAINST the Christian conception of God. Most decent writers could write a less confusing, contradictory and irrational book. Certainly the Christian God could deliver a message so clearly that we humans wouldn't all interpret it differently. And if understanding his word is so important, he'd certainly make it more clear.

That's my take at least.

[ QUOTE ]
but yes, i will agree with you that the bible (and christianity) is very VERY open to debate and interpretation. I don't see how this is always a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not always... but bad often enough to be problematic. Can I have slaves or not? Do I need to spend my life hating gays? Should I kill heretics or not? Are women allowed to speak in Church or is this blasphemous?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot understand the difficulty in understanding this line of thinking that Kurto provided. Considering the importance of the message one would think GOD would make the message very clear. I'm sure a response will be "it was written by men" then GOD should have required a few rough drafts and he should have edited it before publishing. I'm really interested in Christians response to Kurto's original post (I'm still reading the thread so maybe I will). Tell me how you reconcile this with your faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

The response I typically get with this is "Well, if thats your argument, why wouldn't God just go into your brain and convince you to believe? FREE WILL!" which really doesn't make any sense. Where was this admiration for free will for Pharaoh?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is no "official" interpretation of the bible (unfortunately? probably fortunately).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well... different sects/churches believe they have the correct interpretation. These differences have led to many schisms.

Personally, the fact that the Bible is so unclear and open to interpretation is further evidence AGAINST the Christian conception of God. Most decent writers could write a less confusing, contradictory and irrational book. Certainly the Christian God could deliver a message so clearly that we humans wouldn't all interpret it differently. And if understanding his word is so important, he'd certainly make it more clear.

That's my take at least.

[ QUOTE ]
but yes, i will agree with you that the bible (and christianity) is very VERY open to debate and interpretation. I don't see how this is always a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not always... but bad often enough to be problematic. Can I have slaves or not? Do I need to spend my life hating gays? Should I kill heretics or not? Are women allowed to speak in Church or is this blasphemous?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot understand the difficulty in understanding this line of thinking that Kurto provided. Considering the importance of the message one would think GOD would make the message very clear. I'm sure a response will be "it was written by men" then GOD should have required a few rough drafts and he should have edited it before publishing. I'm really interested in Christians response to Kurto's original post (I'm still reading the thread so maybe I will). Tell me how you reconcile this with your faith.

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that the interpreting is an important part. I have an odd take as a christian as I dont believe the bible is literally true, nor infallible. I regard it as a tool to assit us in deepening our understanding of god. It seems to me that God wants us to think about it and form our own view in the face of a message which is difficult to interpret. To me that implies that the journey to understanding is more important than the endpoint.

[livecards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is no "official" interpretation of the bible (unfortunately? probably fortunately).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well... different sects/churches believe they have the correct interpretation. These differences have led to many schisms.

Personally, the fact that the Bible is so unclear and open to interpretation is further evidence AGAINST the Christian conception of God. Most decent writers could write a less confusing, contradictory and irrational book. Certainly the Christian God could deliver a message so clearly that we humans wouldn't all interpret it differently. And if understanding his word is so important, he'd certainly make it more clear.

That's my take at least.

[ QUOTE ]
but yes, i will agree with you that the bible (and christianity) is very VERY open to debate and interpretation. I don't see how this is always a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not always... but bad often enough to be problematic. Can I have slaves or not? Do I need to spend my life hating gays? Should I kill heretics or not? Are women allowed to speak in Church or is this blasphemous?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot understand the difficulty in understanding this line of thinking that Kurto provided. Considering the importance of the message one would think GOD would make the message very clear. I'm sure a response will be "it was written by men" then GOD should have required a few rough drafts and he should have edited it before publishing. I'm really interested in Christians response to Kurto's original post (I'm still reading the thread so maybe I will). Tell me how you reconcile this with your faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

The response I typically get with this is "Well, if thats your argument, why wouldn't God just go into your brain and convince you to believe? FREE WILL!" which really doesn't make any sense. Where was this admiration for free will for Pharaoh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Free will, in this case, is fine and preferable if the choices and consequences are perfectly clear. Also, it should be undeniably the absolute truth. Considering the finality of the subject (infinite heaven or hell), I don't see why this is such a difficult request. I'll never get past the fact that I cannot even rely on the literature to be fact. Can you imagine trying to study a mathematical subject and there isn't a consensus that the material is accurate? How about a Mathematics professor writing a Linear Algebra text via a teleconference with a junior high student as its author? It would be absurd. I would choose not to read either book as both would contain at best questionable material.

[livecards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is no "official" interpretation of the bible (unfortunately? probably fortunately).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well... different sects/churches believe they have the correct interpretation. These differences have led to many schisms.

Personally, the fact that the Bible is so unclear and open to interpretation is further evidence AGAINST the Christian conception of God. Most decent writers could write a less confusing, contradictory and irrational book. Certainly the Christian God could deliver a message so clearly that we humans wouldn't all interpret it differently. And if understanding his word is so important, he'd certainly make it more clear.

That's my take at least.

[ QUOTE ]
but yes, i will agree with you that the bible (and christianity) is very VERY open to debate and interpretation. I don't see how this is always a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not always... but bad often enough to be problematic. Can I have slaves or not? Do I need to spend my life hating gays? Should I kill heretics or not? Are women allowed to speak in Church or is this blasphemous?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot understand the difficulty in understanding this line of thinking that Kurto provided. Considering the importance of the message one would think GOD would make the message very clear. I'm sure a response will be "it was written by men" then GOD should have required a few rough drafts and he should have edited it before publishing. I'm really interested in Christians response to Kurto's original post (I'm still reading the thread so maybe I will). Tell me how you reconcile this with your faith.

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that the interpreting is an important part. I have an odd take as a christian as I dont believe the bible is literally true, nor infallible. I regard it as a tool to assit us in deepening our understanding of god. It seems to me that God wants us to think about it and form our own view in the face of a message which is difficult to interpret. To me that implies that the journey to understanding is more important than the endpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response. I'm interested in all points of view. If the Bible is just a tool then where does your belief in GOD come from? Does GOD want people to just think about it and hopefully come to the correct conclusion? Doesn't the King James Bible say something like either you believe all in this book or none?

[bunny]

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If the Bible is just a tool then where does your belief in GOD come from?

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From personal, subjective experience.

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Does GOD want people to just think about it and hopefully come to the correct conclusion?

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Personally, I think so - although I believe it's the thinking about it that matters, I dont think a benevolent god is going to punish me if I think about it earnestly, do my best, but come to the wrong conclusion.

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Doesn't the King James Bible say something like either you believe all in this book or none?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know, although I believe it is widely recognised that the King James authors took certain liberties in the translating. Irrespective, I do not believe the bible is inerrant - I think the church has done some bad things in the past and been a decidedly power-hungry organisation. When a book which they were sole editors and interpreters of says "You have to do what the church says" I can think of an alternative explanation to "divinely dictated law" for that bit. I think Jesus was a fan of living your faith and following your heart rather than blindly following the rules of church leaders.

Obviously, although I call myself christian, I clearly have a different perspective to most so I wouldnt treat this as "the" christian response. (Many would say it is not even "a" christian response)

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the Bible is just a tool then where does your belief in GOD come from?

[/ QUOTE ]
From personal, subjective experience.

[ QUOTE ]
Does GOD want people to just think about it and hopefully come to the correct conclusion?

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think so - although I believe it's the thinking about it that matters, I dont think a benevolent god is going to punish me if I think about it earnestly, do my best, but come to the wrong conclusion.

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't the King James Bible say something like either you believe all in this book or none?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know, although I believe it is widely recognised that the King James authors took certain liberties in the translating. Irrespective, I do not believe the bible is inerrant - I think the church has done some bad things in the past and been a decidedly power-hungry organisation. When a book which they were sole editors and interpreters of says "You have to do what the church says" I can think of an alternative explanation to "divinely dictated law" for that bit. I think Jesus was a fan of living your faith and following your heart rather than blindly following the rules of church leaders.

Obviously, although I call myself christian, I clearly have a different perspective to most so I wouldnt treat this as "the" christian response. (Many would say it is not even "a" christian response)

[/ QUOTE ]

I always like harassing you, more than pretty much anyone else on here, because I know I stand a chance.

What, in your subjective, personal experience, makes you think God is benevolent? You've admitted that the Bible cannot be a source of proof or really even evidence, since it was written by men as a tool. So do you just want to believe God is benevolent?

I can't think of a single, personal, subjective experience that would lead me to think that, even IF there is a God, there is any reason to think he is benevolent.

[livecards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the Bible is just a tool then where does your belief in GOD come from?

[/ QUOTE ]
From personal, subjective experience.


[ QUOTE ]
Does GOD want people to just think about it and hopefully come to the correct conclusion?

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think so - although I believe it's the thinking about it that matters, I dont think a benevolent god is going to punish me if I think about it earnestly, do my best, but come to the wrong conclusion.




[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't the King James Bible say something like either you believe all in this book or none?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know, although I believe it is widely recognised that the King James authors took certain liberties in the translating. Irrespective, I do not believe the bible is inerrant - I think the church has done some bad things in the past and been a decidedly power-hungry organisation. When a book which they were sole editors and interpreters of says "You have to do what the church says" I can think of an alternative explanation to "divinely dictated law" for that bit. I think Jesus was a fan of living your faith and following your heart rather than blindly following the rules of church leaders.

Obviously, although I call myself christian, I clearly have a different perspective to most so I wouldnt treat this as "the" christian response. (Many would say it is not even "a" christian response)

[/ QUOTE ]


If there is a GOD, I would imagine all his/her children would go to heaven too. It just makes more sense. Infinite punishment for finite crimes seems unjust. Especially considering the lack of information.

I respect your position. It is more logical than most religious perspectives. Religion has been used to control people (particularly women and children). Not to mention, the justification for conquest of raw materials. Religion is necessary for many people. Imagine in 24 hours from now, everybody absolutely knew that GOD didn't exit. It wouldn't be pretty. Take care.

[bunny]

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I always like harassing you, more than pretty much anyone else on here, because I know I stand a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps - I'm all confused of late, having a serious crisis of confidence. I appreciate the effort though.. (PS - arent you supposed to be studying? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

[ QUOTE ]
What, in your subjective, personal experience, makes you think God is benevolent? You've admitted that the Bible cannot be a source of proof or really even evidence, since it was written by men as a tool. So do you just want to believe God is benevolent?

I can't think of a single, personal, subjective experience that would lead me to think that, even IF there is a God, there is any reason to think he is benevolent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Remember that I experience it as a connection with another being. In other words, I feel God is a person I am engaged in some sort of relationship with. You surely form opinions all the time regarding people's motivations, inclinations, etc based on your relationship with them. I know it's different in that there is no conversation, actions, etc that I can point to, but it isnt a static thing - it "feels" like he's a good guy based on his responses when I talk to him.

With regard to the "Do you just want him to be benevolent?" question, this is certainly a possibility - I'd appreciate advice on how I can tell the difference, of course! (Of all the possible atheistic explanations for my belief - the strongest in my case is almost certainly a desire to be loved. I have no religious upbringing, no particular fear of death or not living forever, etc etc. It is definitely important to me to be loved though, so maybe I've invented (or adopted) a belief in God for that reason.)

Excuse my silence if I dont answer for a bit - I'm struggling to say anything clearly atm and it's bugging me. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Taraz]

John21,

Well said. I've been meaning to read more about the Fundamentalism Project but I haven't gotten the chance yet.