200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!

[Money2Burn]

This is a call, but I think it's close because it's so deep and I think this guy's range is heavily weighted towards sets because he's fairly passive postflop. It would be easier if you had raised more. I probably make it 100 or 110.

[Money2Burn]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh... I don't really like how you played this one. I prefer a very large raise with this particular hand on the flop as well as with sets/top two for balance.

My reasoning is that I want to get the money in against most hands, but I don't want to be put in a position that a fold is likely correct against his now (once he shoves) greatly reduced range - two pair and sets mostly. Raising large on the flop (at least pot) will increase your fold equity, which I don't mind with a big draw. It also bloats the pot while we are often a favorite on teh flop as our hand plays much poorer on the turn if he calls our flop raise. Let's say he has AA here and you make your size raise. What does villain do? He calls or pushes quite often. Now say you raise huge, Villain finds a fold here every now and then to the larger raise, which is great because we are flipping with most big pairs and a slight dog to AA so every time you force him out, you are winning money. Last, but not least, if he does shove over the top, it makes much more sense to call with the better odds we have.

Well, now that I've got that out of my system, I'd call here. But, I'm a big fish and I call huge bets with just flush draws. It's all about style baby.

soda

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you make an important point if you are going to raise this flop you want to raise a lot to give yourself better odds the times the villian pushes because you are so deep.

[TJ Eckleburg12]

...But by raising a lot on the flop, WHEN Villain comes over the top now we KNOW we're destroyed. We're chasing a flush that can still lose.

I think him coming over the top of a normal raise tells us all we need to know, and the pot math says folding is better than calling at that point.

[primate]

Seems we are divided. Most importantly for me was whether it would be mathematically correct to call the all in?
I don't like putting a big chunk of my stack in only to fold to a shove.

[Money2Burn]

[ QUOTE ]
...But by raising a lot on the flop, WHEN Villain comes over the top now we KNOW we're destroyed. We're chasing a flush that can still lose.

I think him coming over the top of a normal raise tells us all we need to know, and the pot math says folding is better than calling at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say you're destroyed when you have the nut flush draw on an unpaired board. Also, he could definately be pushing worse flush draws here.

What would you raise with your sets here? That is how much you should riase in this situation. If you have a set here you certainly should raise big.

[primate]

ya I play sets and big draws the same

[shpanko]

[ QUOTE ]
I think saying that you should float the flop is a little results-based. Obviously, since our flop raise got over-shoved, of COURSE we shoulda just called the flop!

In general, I agree that you should feel okay about getting bet-3bai if you're going to raise the flop. But for the BIG push all-in, I think you HAVE to consider that his most likely holdings are sets and two pairs that don't want to see more cards on this board.

Given that you raised the flop (which is fine of course), I think folding is clearly better than calling here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with you on this. When we raise/fold this flop we are counting on him either folding or just calling most of the time. With this villain I don't think we can make that assumption. In fact I think his reaction to our raise is going to be almost completely shove/fold. So if we're raising it should be for value/to get the money in and not to fold to a raise. With shallower stacks I like raising and getting the money in. But since I'm not comfortable getting so much money in with just the bare nfd I think calling is much better. There are a lot of cards we can bluff with later on in the hand if villain shows weakness and if he does have a monster we'll get a decent chunk of his stackj if we hit our flush.

[AnthonyH]

This deep, I flat the flop. This deep, if you are reraising, it must be with intention of felting this flop, which I am not comfortable doing. After he comes over the top, his range has narrowed enough to where it beats you, and being this deep you don't have the odds to play for stacks. Folding obv sucks, so calling is best imo.

[primate]

I have stoved this. The best equity I can find is 33%. And this is being generous by including some slow played KK.

I think the "CORRECT" decision should have been to fold to the push. However I called.

$309.15 and is All-In

Turn: ($797.30) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($797.30) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $797.30 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a flush, Nine high) and LOST (-$393.15 NET)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high) and WON $794.30 (+$401.15 NET)

[crunchi]

OP, villain donks and you didnt plan for his 3bet? wtf?