79 suited in the big blind, I felt priced in here

[Smurph64]

30% equity in pot with 5 players capped with 27 bets in it.

Are you kidding me? Did I just fall down a rabbit hole?

Let me play this hand 1 time a week for the next year and I will bet it every time.


You guys have fun drawing for the free card here.

I follow the large pot rules in SSHE.

I bet. If you think a check/raise is better ok I can buy that but check/call? Ludicrious.

The only way a donk makes this worse is if somene holds pocket 8's.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I follow the large pot rules in SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, big pot, do everything you can to take it down as soon as possible. The only thing you've said about how donking is going to help us do that is a vague assertion that the PFR will raise your bet and blow out the field, folding better hands. Are you kidding? The only hand we could possibly want to fold that we possibly could fold is J9, and that is just as likely to fold to 1 bet as 2 (either he knows pot odds or he doesn't). You're not folding overpairs, 8s, everybody, or any other hand that's going to give us a shot of winning without catching our straight.

Edit: sorry, when you pulled the old "Quote SSH to validate a bad argument" trick, I stopped reading. I just finished reading, and found this:

[ QUOTE ]
I bet. If you think a check/raise is better ok I can buy that but check/call? Ludicrious.

The only way a donk makes this worse is if somene holds pocket 8's.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I don't think anybody said check/call, we just said don't donk the flop. Second, in this case pocket 8s is no different than pocket 6s (or 86 for that matter) on the flop. Finally, making a play because "it's not going to make it worse" is painfully misguided.

[Smurph64]

calling is absurd here anyway you want to slice it. My motives may be askew here but betting is the only smart choice here.

Check/raise or donk, never check/call.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
calling is absurd here anyway you want to slice it. My motives may be askew here but betting is the only smart choice here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, nobody's said anything about calling anywhere. That said, if you check and there's only 1-2 players left when the action is to you, or the player on your immediate right bets, then calling > raising.

As to betting, if you've decided your motives are askew how can your line be "the only smart choice"? You're not betting to win the pot, for reasons already stated, and if you bet and the action DOES go fold-raise-fold-fold after you, then you're not betting for value, either. Really, anything more than one fold makes your value-bet pretty thin.

Now I have to go line some soccer fields.

[arch_angel]

[ QUOTE ]
What is our equity here? Can we win this hand with our 7 potential outs or are we drawing dead?

If its four back to you do you call?

I do. There are 27sb in there already before the betting for this round so I already have pot odds to call.

Donking hss zero negative effect on me moneywise here from an output point of view. Whether its 1 and 3 or 2 and 2 or check and 4 I don't really care.


If you are stating that the others will make mistakes that will cost me money by donking and making them play the hand in such a way that they don't donate as much give me some scenarios where that is true.

[/ QUOTE ]
This has probably been addressed, but I think the scenario where this is bad can be created by assigning hand ranges for the villains in this hand. If utg has 99+ or KJs+ he's raising half the time (and I would say his range is probably better than that), and if utg+1 has JJ+ or AQs+ then he's almost always raising, which faces the limpers with 2-3 bets cold, and may fold out the hands that you beat, giving you slightly less equity, but your opponents who still remain much more of an equity boost.

In short I think the reason donking the flop is not advocated is that you retain a greater %/players in the hand by checking the flop with the intention of calling. It's like going for overcalls instead of raising, sometimes you want callers because if you fold people out you're giving their equity mostly to the other remaining players.

[neurotiq]

I play it the same way. Nice hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

Smurph -

You're better than this. You've produced many well thought out positions in your history here. But this simply isn't one of them. Look at your points a and b and tell me whether you have any logic in them at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me play this hand 1 time a week for the next year and I will bet it every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Produce a reasonable argument to explain *WHY* you bet.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys have fun drawing for the free card here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not an affirmative argument for donking.

[ QUOTE ]
I follow the large pot rules in SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which rule?

[ QUOTE ]
If you think a check/raise is better ok I can buy that but check/call? Ludicrious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said that. Again, you're better than this.

[Smurph64]

Seize opportunities to knock out players, whether you have a made hand or a draw.

pg. 321 SSHE.

Now it seems to me that if people are advocating the check/raise vs the donk and in light of your arguments, I understand the rationale.

But calling down here makes no sense from an equity point of view or a push people out point of view. Whatever argument you wish to apply calling just doesn't seem correct to me.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Seize opportunities to knock out players, whether you have a made hand or a draw.

pg. 321 SSHE.

Now it seems to me that if people are advocating the check/raise vs the donk and in light of your arguments, I understand the rationale.

But calling down here makes no sense from an equity point of view or a push people out point of view. Whatever argument you wish to apply calling just doesn't seem correct to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this one more time, and then give up. NOBODY EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CALLING. Except me. And the only mention I made of it was that if the bet came from your immediate right, you should just call. And I'm right about that. You're up against a preflop LRR and raise/capper. You're a) never pushing THEM out, and b) only improving THEIR equity, not your own, by driving other players out.

Now I'm seriously not going to look at this thread again.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Seize opportunities to knock out players, whether you have a made hand or a draw.

pg. 321 SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too bad you didn't focus on the details of the corresponding section:

[ QUOTE ]
Even without the best hand, you still want many hands to fold... With a hand this weak (87s on a T75 flush draw board of a different suit), your winning chances improve significantly with every player who folds. When the pot is large, invest extra bets if doing so improves your chance to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

The italics are not mine.

I've already shown you that making other players fold only *barely* increases your chance of winning. Basically, you prevent a tiny percent of hands that might catch a 2-outer or backdoor draw from hitting *WHEN THAT DRAW HAPPENS TO BE OUT THERE*. Otherwise, there's no change in your chance to win, and all you do is help the player with the best hand make more money without getting anything in return.

The entire play is contingent on the simple fact that hero's hand *MIGHT* be best, even if rarely. Hero's hand here is *NEVER* best.