Ethanol and Oil&Corn Prices

[Pokeraddict]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Finally, I refused to buy ADM. I think investors can have
ethics even at a cost, and I believe ADM engages in
unethical behavior. Id be glad to further elaborate if
someone wants.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please do, ADM appears to be a much safer bet than an ethanol producer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree, they are certainly well diversified. Of course as mentioned ealier about 10 years ago they had a scandal but I don't see how that matters now, it's not like they were cooking the books if I remember correctly.

[wiseheart]

They have had a scandal, but I have other worries as well.

The wiki has good info on price fixing behavor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland

However, my main concern is with ADM's attempts to disrupt
bio-diversity. This is done by creating hybrid/GMO seeds
and then distributing them to farmers who then have to
continue to repurchase seeds from the company every year
because the seeds are sterile (plants don't grow more seeds)
They will even give the seeds away for free to some farmers,
but then those farmers will have to start purchasing seeds
every year instead of just collecting seeds like they used
to.

This is a perfectly legal and quite common practice among
large agricultural producers and even some small ones.
However, with my studies, I feel that this is a bad
direction to take and it is ultimately going to leave the
world's food supply more vulnerable to various afflictions.
There are plenty of good benefits from seed research, but
this is not one of them IMHO.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
They have had a scandal, but I have other worries as well.

The wiki has good info on price fixing behavor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland

However, my main concern is with ADM's attempts to disrupt
bio-diversity. This is done by creating hybrid/GMO seeds
and then distributing them to farmers who then have to
continue to repurchase seeds from the company every year
because the seeds are sterile (plants don't grow more seeds)
They will even give the seeds away for free to some farmers,
but then those farmers will have to start purchasing seeds
every year instead of just collecting seeds like they used
to.

This is a perfectly legal and quite common practice among
large agricultural producers and even some small ones.
However, with my studies, I feel that this is a bad
direction to take and it is ultimately going to leave the
world's food supply more vulnerable to various afflictions.
There are plenty of good benefits from seed research, but
this is not one of them IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to get your facts straight. ADM is not the one "creating" GMO seeds. That would be Monsanto...and a few others...but Monsanto is the ringleader. ADM is a handler & processor not a grower.

BTW, the seeds aren't 'sterile'. They never were. Farmers have to sign an agreement (and pay a fee) prior to purchasing & using the seeds stating that they will not retain any for planting the next year. It is another way that the manufacturer pads their bottom line. If they catch you replanting seed from a prior crop, they will prosecute you.

Trust me, they don't "give away" seed....GMO seed is expensive.

[notluck]

I find it funny how all the focus about freeing the U.S. from oil people only think of energy. While ignoring plastic. Plastic needs oil, and the solutions to that problem are more complex, in part due to less overt focus by the government(s). Lastly, corn destroys crops by sucking massive quantities of nitrogen out of the soil, to replace it they nitrogenate the soil, funny enough to extract nitrogen from the earth requires a great deal of energy. Yes I know that the air is full of it, but we are talking about efficient extraction. Just some thoughts, if I had more time I would lead you to some research, but try searing for bushel into gas conversion prices then look how much energy it takes to grow a corn. Better yet realize how much corn we would need to grow to support our current energy needs. I could go on, but you see my point. I know this is a bit of topic, but I felt this should be noted in everyone's estimation of usability of ethanol as the silver bullet.

P.S. My favorite part about ethanol is that in its purest form you can drink it.

[Pokeraddict]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. My favorite part about ethanol is that in its purest form you can drink it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is basically like Golden Grain 190 proof is right?

[notluck]

Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

[kimchi]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny how all the focus about freeing the U.S. from oil people only think of energy. While ignoring plastic. Plastic needs oil, and the solutions to that problem are more complex, in part due to less overt focus by the government(s). Lastly, corn destroys crops by sucking massive quantities of nitrogen out of the soil, to replace it they nitrogenate the soil, funny enough to extract nitrogen from the earth requires a great deal of energy. Yes I know that the air is full of it, but we are talking about efficient extraction. Just some thoughts, if I had more time I would lead you to some research, but try searing for bushel into gas conversion prices then look how much energy it takes to grow a corn. Better yet realize how much corn we would need to grow to support our current energy needs. I could go on, but you see my point. I know this is a bit of topic, but I felt this should be noted in everyone's estimation of usability of ethanol as the silver bullet.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a valid point. All alternative energy sources are effectively energy derivatives of oil. You need oil to make and run every form of alternative energy. There is no form of energy (yet) that doesn't require a large amount of oil in its production/maintenance/harvest.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny how all the focus about freeing the U.S. from oil people only think of energy. While ignoring plastic. Plastic needs oil, and the solutions to that problem are more complex, in part due to less overt focus by the government(s). Lastly, corn destroys crops by sucking massive quantities of nitrogen out of the soil, to replace it they nitrogenate the soil, funny enough to extract nitrogen from the earth requires a great deal of energy. Yes I know that the air is full of it, but we are talking about efficient extraction. Just some thoughts, if I had more time I would lead you to some research, but try searing for bushel into gas conversion prices then look how much energy it takes to grow a corn. Better yet realize how much corn we would need to grow to support our current energy needs. I could go on, but you see my point. I know this is a bit of topic, but I felt this should be noted in everyone's estimation of usability of ethanol as the silver bullet.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a valid point. All alternative energy sources are effectively energy derivatives of oil. You need oil to make and run every form of alternative energy. There is no form of energy (yet) that doesn't require a large amount of oil in its production/maintenance/harvest.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the flux capacitor??? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[wiseheart]

Incorrect, there are plenty of energy alternatives
that don't require "large amounts of oil" as you say.

Take for instance methane recovery. This can be done
on a large scale with heavy equipment, or done on a
small scale with no oil components whatsoever. The way
I was introduced to it was at a Heifer International
camp (in southwest Arkansas) designed so that we had
to live in the way that a certain population might live.

One of the populations had a mechanism for recovering
methane. They simply had a wooden barrel where they put
the cow crap and then had a tube (which may or may not
have been plastic, I don't remember, but it doesn't have
to be, it could easily been a natural rubber tube, or
some other non-synthetic) the tube went to the fireplace
where they burnt it for heat/to cook food.

There are lots more examples of sustainable energy
production that don't require oil and I'll be glad
to point you to some sources if you want to PM me or
start a new thread. Heck, even ethanol can exist virtually
oil free by burning the plant residue for energy and
converting it that way (this is laid out pretty well in
one of the ethanol wikis but I can't remember which one)

As far as ADM, I know that they don't create the seed,
they distribute it. There are cases of them distributing
seed for free, feel free to google it, I found it the
other day, but I need to get back to writing my paper,
maybe I will find it in a couple of days.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as ADM, I know that they don't create the seed,
they distribute it. There are cases of them distributing
seed for free, feel free to google it, I found it the
other day, but I need to get back to writing my paper,
maybe I will find it in a couple of days.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know they don't create it, then why did you say that in your post?

What do you mean by "they distribute it"?