Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey

[Victor]

so 5bet cap makes a big difference here right? yall are calling if its capped no?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
so 5bet cap makes a big difference here right? yall are calling if its capped no?

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't capping anything but AA and KK likely, don't sweat it.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so 5bet cap makes a big difference here right? yall are calling if its capped no?

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't capping anything but AA and KK likely, don't sweat it.

[/ QUOTE ]

but it sounds like those are a big part of his range. good fold.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
great live players know their opponents much much better in general and sometimes so well theyre really in their heads. when chris posts what he had and why he 4 bet you will all see that that was the case here. joe needed to recognize that and make the right play which was call or even raise.

with online hands the question is "what would you do?"
with live hands the question is "what should i do?"

you would fold. but that's meaningless.
*he* should have called.

[/ QUOTE ]

God please stop being so smug for just one second.

and how come nobody has answered me when i ask why the [censored] *joe* should five-bet?

And you don't think you can't get in peoples' heads online?

And you don't think an online player can't get inside someone's head live?

And regarding the sim, while a little helpful, THIS ISN'T all-in poker. It's so easy to turn this preflop call into a compounding mistake postflop. And when the board comes K937 and you raise and get 3-bet, what now? You're gonna convince yourself he could still have AA or AK and call down and probably be wrong.

[Kirby99]

God please stop being so smug for just one second.



[/ QUOTE ]


Please

[mike l.]

"and how come nobody has answered me when i ask why the [censored] *joe* should five-bet? And you don't think you can't get in peoples' heads online? And you don't think an online player can't get inside someone's head live?"

i never said that. my point was live poker is even more read based and deviating from what's obvious as a result is critical.

joe should 5 bet (or at least call) because chris had 44 and he said he 4 bet specifically because he knew joe would fold hands he should call with and then he'd get to play a pot with dead money with a pair heads up in position against a really weak player. joe should know by now this is what chris thinks of his play and surprise him some times by getting a little out of line and throwing him some laggro curve balls. this would have been a great time to do that.

for me to do it would be not as effective because chris knows im capable of making this play preflop too willingly. so for me it might be just better to fold and get out of the way or call and proceed with caution.

"And when the board comes K937 and you raise and get 3-bet, what now? You're gonna convince yourself he could still have AA or AK and call down and probably be wrong."

if he's weak preflop i could see laying this down on the turn or river.

as for being smug, i dont know what youre talking about. please keep the insults to yourself.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
God please stop being so smug for just one second.

and how come nobody has answered me when i ask why the [censored] *joe* should five-bet?

And regarding the sim, while a little helpful, THIS ISN'T all-in poker. It's so easy to turn this preflop call into a compounding mistake postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. Glad Schneids keeps focusing here. I like his take on it.

I think it's close. I like fold>>>>call in general, but can easily see myself calling based on reads at the time. I think capping discussed as an option here was ridiculous.

Even 4 handed when the BB could be looking for your fold, 5 betting a 3 way pot with 97s there would be a big time -EV play that I don't think is close.

[12ressiMorP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Live 50/100 at Rio, 4 handed. DD, two super fish and me.

I open on the button with 97s, SB who is super loose but passive preflop 3 bets, DeathDonkey 4 bets in the big blind.

Call or fold? How close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. You are in for half and will be getting 13 to 1 to call one bet on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What % is it 2 bets to us on the flop if we just call preflop here? If we cap?

[andyfox]

Good discussion. It does seem to me that, though it's a preflop debate, it's important, given that it's shorthanded and DD, in theory, tends towards mania and Joe, in theory, tends towards nitdom.

So it comes down to a tradeoff between the fact that, as Gabe points out, it would be better (or, should I say, less worse?) for Joe to cap here than it would be for DD in the same spot, and the fact that Joe has a crappy hand that could be tough to play with DD in between him and the "fish." My guess is that the guy ain't quite as fishy as Joe thinks, given, as Clark points out, that he's playing 4-handed here.

For you guys advocating calling or capping, are there any hands, in this situation, that you would raise with on the button and not continue on with when sb 3-bets and DD 4-bets? or that Joe should raise with on the button and not continue on?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
DD 4 bet specifically because he knew joe would fold hands he should call with and then he'd get to play a pot with dead money with a pair heads up in position against a really weak player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty key and worth repeating even though it's been mentioned a few times already.