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  #31  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:43 AM
JackCase JackCase is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]


Anyway, thanks to all for discussing my book, even those who have not read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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  #32  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:07 PM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

I'm halfway through the book. A couple points.

This discussion on "Illusion of Action" is getting too much attention. Basically what he is saying is that you shouldn't be too predictable.

Keep in mind, the book is about "tough games". There is only a little overlap between this and Stox's book. That's primarily because, although the titles are similar, Stox is about short-handed primarily and Tanenbaum is about full ring. Theoretically full ring ought to play like short-handed once the first 3 or 4 people fold, but we know this isn't precisely true in practice.

Tanenbaum addresses issues where you are playing the same opponents for long enough to know their styles and they to know yours. Unpredictability is important and in fact, he claims, is one of the major things that distinguishes good higher limit players from low-mid limit players who merely play solid. He is not talking about playing "wild" or anything of that nature really.

I think a good analogy is counting cards in Blackjack. There is a game theoretical optimum strategy. However in practice you can't employ it because you'll get knocked out for counting cards. So, you have to hide your intentions, while actually still playing as close as you can to correct game theory. You give up a little in theory to gain compared to getting detected by the casino.

And so it is against good poker players. You have to conceal what you're doing to a certain extent, while still playing good poker overall.

We might ask again, why play in "tough" games to begin with, if game selection is so important? Because you can make more winning 1 BB/hr in a $30/60 game than you can winning 3 BB/hr in an $8/16 game.

I like the book so far.
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  #33  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:09 PM
fraac fraac is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

If it's for full ring and known opponents, does it even apply that much online?
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  #34  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:11 PM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]
I can't help but think the book is going this way. In the higher limits, especially if the game is short handed, you need to make all sorts of semi-bluffing type plays and plays that your opponent fears. This is not compatible with the illusion of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean here. This is part of the illusion of action as I understand he means it.
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  #35  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:18 PM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

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If it's for full ring and known opponents, does it even apply that much online?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, my thinking was that it applied a little less for online. Unless, obviously, you're playing at the same site against the same players a lot, which is actually what would happen if you were playing the higher limits like $30/60. But there really isn't much going on in terms of full ring games at those limits. I will occasionally get in a $10/20 full game online. I used to play in a full game occasionally at $30/60 at Ultimate Bet, but that was over a year ago.
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  #36  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:31 PM
fraac fraac is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't help but think the book is going this way. In the higher limits, especially if the game is short handed, you need to make all sorts of semi-bluffing type plays and plays that your opponent fears. This is not compatible with the illusion of action.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure what you mean here. This is part of the illusion of action as I understand he means it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He means that he expects to have fearful opponents who don't routinely follow Sklansky's advice to semi-bluff reraise your semi-bluff raises. A game with fearful opponents is no longer realistic. A game with opponents marginally less aware of edges IS realistic.

However, if the book is more suitable for live play, maybe those weak conditions still apply and Tanenbaum's advice is slightly contradictory. Interesting.
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  #37  
Old 11-26-2007, 01:57 PM
Mason Malmuth Mason Malmuth is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

Hi Adman:

Again I have not yet read this book and probably shouldn't comment (much) on it until that happens. I now hope to get to it sooner rather than later (as originally planned), and when I do, even though my formal review won't appear here, everyone will quickly find out what my gereral opinon is.

Best wishes,
Mason
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  #38  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:36 PM
SenecaJim SenecaJim is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

Mason, Where will your official review appear?
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  #39  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:29 AM
Ray Zee Ray Zee is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

i havent read that book or even seen it, but the exact pharse "illusion of action" was coined by dave when writing our book that hasnt made it to print. i find it very troubling that he uses it simlarly to our use and was privy to the part of the manuscript that few have seen.
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  #40  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:31 AM
Adman Adman is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

Dave Fromm also spoke extensively about the "illusion of action" in his shorthanded "Expert Hold 'em" DVD series and that was some time back.
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