Benifits of the straddle - Page 4

Lagtastic · #31 10-26-2007, 10:47 AM

thank you rek, you saved me the time...

SellingtheDrama · #32 10-26-2007, 12:23 PM

Someone just randomly straddling once is throwing away money - absolutely.

Someone getting the straddle started or just going along with it can help improve game conditions. It's generally worth that to me as an investment.

I can recall one pot where I won a substantial amount shortly after I had straddled along with a couple other guys (it was one of their straddles) - my victim even admitted that he thought I was just goofing around again and didn't put me on a real hand.

PocketJokers72 · #33 10-26-2007, 12:46 PM

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helps conceal the fact that you play 19/12/4 when pretty much everyone else is running at 50/2/.33. And 2 BBs is a lot cheaper than most ways to look like a gambler. Especially if 2-3 other guys are straddling as well.

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QFMFT

CurryLover · #34 10-27-2007, 06:16 AM

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and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

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What are you basing this assertion on?

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And what are you basing your whole post on? Some wily old pro who knows how to mix his game up well? Nobody is arguing the fact that you should not mix your play up and be unpredictable. That is all part of being a good live player. It just seems that you and some others cannot accept you can do this without a straddle.

The question was "benefits of the straddle" not "benefits of mixing up your game". A straddle is putting money in blind. How can that possibly be +EV. Yes you will win some pots by being lucky but long term it cannot be a profitable play IMHO.

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My point was that straddling was one possible way to influence certain important factors such as image, game conditions and table texture. Voluntarily putting money into the pot before you have been dealt your cards is clearly -EV when looked at in the most literal sense. Obvioualy. But sometimes it can have other more intangible benefits that might compensate, and might even make this a +EV move. For example, straddling once or twice may do any or all of the following things:
1) Loosen up a tight table by promoting a gambling mentality.
2) Give you the image of a loose gambler and lead to you getting more action on future hands.
3) Encourage other players to straddle.

Would you not agree that - in the right circumstances - these factors might more than make up for the small loss you have voluntarily taken on by straddling? In my experience I have often seen someone straddling a few times open up a tight game and make it more profitable to play in for the next few hours. I have also seen someone posting a straddle and this leading to another player choosing to straddle every pot for the next two hours!

Of course there are other ways to mix things up, improve your table image, and influence the actions of other players. I am not saying that straddling is the only way to do this, or the best way. I am certainly not suggesting - as you accuse me of - that it is impossible to mix up your play and be unpredictable without straddling. All I am arguing is that straddling is one possible way to influence these factors.

To be honest, I am not even arguing that straddling is profitable. I am just pointing out that it can have benefits in the right circumstances, and that sometimes these may make it a +EV move.

So, in answer to your question: I am basing my post on a reasoned argument coupled with my own experience of seeing how someone straddling can influence game conditions. You may not agree with my reasoning, and you may have had different experiences in your own live play. That's ok.

Lagtastic · #35 10-29-2007, 01:55 PM

So i decided to straddle a few times in 1/2 NL 100 max @ the majestic...

first time i did so, an mid position player raised to 15 and i looked down at 33... whats your play there?

the next 3 times i did it i got bottom of the barrel hands, i mean like the worst.

after that i decided to quit straddling and ended up having a pretty good session. still on the fence though

bozzer · #36 10-30-2007, 08:16 AM

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

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Good to know.... as I said don't play live often and didn't know about it. Is this fairly common? Is it allowed most places?

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it's allowed in Leeds, where you can straddle from any position. so the guy on my right kept straddling, meaning i was always UTG pf. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Skleice · #37 10-30-2007, 11:33 AM

I don't think you can discuss straddle w/o talking about stack size. If you are playing deep then the straddle can benefit the good player who can win bigger pots by outplaying the weak players. However, I play in a home game where a couple donks out of the lot of us play w/ 40-50 bbs in front of them. They always want to straddle cuz they ARE there to gamble. In this case I don't like the staddle because it becomes like a tournament when it's an all in fest. IMO it jacks up the variance factor for the donk and leaves me w/o any play post flop.

F0rtysxity · #38 10-30-2007, 12:04 PM

Thank you CurryLover. I agree 100% with your response to all who say the straddle is negative EV and should never be done. It is, in my experience one of the best ways to pull the game out of the muck. Granted you are the one making the monetary sacrifice but... from my perspective, a prof. poker player is also the custodian of a good game. If the atmosphere is 'fun' then the weaker players enjoy showing up. The money they lose, assuming they have a lot of it, can be viewed as entertainment expenses. If you get a good game going, donators will show up on a regular basis. The straddle (and sleeper) is all part of the mix.

I'd also argue that the straddle often takes weaker players out of their comfort zone and forces them to play bigger pots then they are used to.

I love the straddle, even to the extent that it is a leak in my game.

Pokerfarian · #39 10-30-2007, 12:09 PM

Yeah stack sizes are super important. Like in the 1-2 $100 game mentioned, I want to shove 33 there after one raise to 15. And that kind've sucks for a lot of people so thus I wouldn't straddle unless you were deeeper

CurryLover · #40 10-30-2007, 01:11 PM

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

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Good to know.... as I said don't play live often and didn't know about it. Is this fairly common? Is it allowed most places?

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it's allowed in Leeds, where you can straddle from any position. so the guy on my right kept straddling, meaning i was always UTG pf. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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I sometimes play in Leeds. Do I know you? I play in the game at Napoleons which is run/dealt by Faz.

By the way, this is one of the annoying things about the Mississipi straddle. But when it happens the other way round (i.e. it is the guy on your left who is straddling every hand) it is fantastic. Guess it evens out in the long run...