I still don't get these low only hands

cjs · #1 09-25-2007, 09:17 PM

Is the turn a call of the raise or a 3 bet?

The river a cap? I led hopefully so the high would raise but the 3 bet made me think more nut lows were out.

PokerStars 2/4 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Button calls, BB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 26.25 BB

sfgiants · #2 09-25-2007, 10:49 PM

I'd check/call turn and river, as your hand is a pulling hand. Betting on the turn allows someone with a full-house to raise and possibly knock out someone with a 5 and low kicker. If these 5xxx people stick around, you build a bigger pot.

On the river, same logic applies. I think the probability of you getting quartered is pretty high here, so I check-call.

Disclaimer: I play lower stakes than this, though, so I may be wrong.

Buzz · #3 09-25-2007, 10:49 PM

CJS - I'd bet the flop. And then everything might play out differently.

[ QUOTE ]
Is the turn a call of the raise or a 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]It's close. I probably just call so as not to risk losing MP1 at this point. But a raise would be fine too.

[ QUOTE ]
The river a cap?

[/ QUOTE ]Again it's close. Either seems fine.

If you had bet the flop, everything might be different. The way things are, both the turn and river are places you could mix up your play, sometimes raising and sometimes calling. You're not going to gain or lose much one way or the other.

Buzz

cjs · #4 09-26-2007, 08:11 AM

Buzz what is the rational behind the flop lead? I have the draw to the nut low but no counterfit protection and no high. There seems to be no way to promote the hand to a scooper without a 4 and that might still lose to full house.

sneaks619 · #5 09-26-2007, 10:44 AM

This makes no sense buzz, there is no need to lead at this pot with that hand, you are on a DRAW to only half the pot, don't listen to buzz i have no idea why he is telling you to lead, then call then maybe cap??? You are behind so many hands and by continuing to bet you are creating a bigger pot to which you might be getting quartered. If you are going to play this hand use pot control and keep the pot small as you can only win half of it unless a 4 comes and that still might not be good, My advice do not play this hand check the flop, and get away if someone bets. Play hands in which you can win both sides, when you start playing omaha 8 to win just one side that is when you will start loosing alot of money

Tilt_Monkey · #6 09-26-2007, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
CJS - I'd bet the flop. And then everything might play out differently.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you bet at this point? I can't see how someone holding A3 will fold in a 7-way pot. On the other hand, you might scare off some weak high hands, such as the second diamond flush.

Buzz · #7 09-26-2007, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz what is the rational behind the flop lead?

[/ QUOTE ]CJS - Multiple reasons. I almost hate to list them for fear I'll leave something out.<ul type="square">
• I think you get a better idea where you are.
• You disguise your own hand better. Your thinking, reasoning opponents have to wonder if you have a five, a full house, a diamond draw, a low draw, or some combination of these.
• You put pressure on your opponents and they're more likely to make mistakes when they're under pressure.
• If you make the nut low on the next card, it's not quite as obvious as checking here and betting there.
• If you get counterfeited on the next card, it's not quite as obvious as checking here.
• Betting here tends to disguise your betting for some future time when you do flop the nuts.
• Betting here fits well with my overall style of play.[/list]I could probably come up with some other reasons, but that's enough for me (and maybe for you as well).
[ QUOTE ]
I have the draw to the nut low but no counterfit protection and no high.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree that the flop is certainly not ideal for you.
[ QUOTE ]
There seems to be no way to promote the hand to a scooper without a 4 and that might still lose to full house.

[/ QUOTE ]Good points. I still like betting this flop.

No hand is an island.

Buzz

Buzz · #8 09-26-2007, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you bet at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]Tilt Monkey - Please see my reply to CJS, just above.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how someone holding A3 will fold in a 7-way pot. On the other hand, you might scare off some weak high hands, such as the second diamond flush.

[/ QUOTE ]Good points. I agree.

But I think the reasons for betting outweigh the reasons for checking.

Buzz

Buzz · #9 09-26-2007, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This makes no sense buzz,

[/ QUOTE ]Sneaks - Please read my reply to CJS for some reasons to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
there is no need to lead at this pot with that hand, you are on a DRAW to only half the pot,

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not quite looking at it that way.

[ QUOTE ]
don't listen to buzz i have no idea why he is telling you to lead,

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps you will have an idea if you read my reply to CJS.
[ QUOTE ]
then call then maybe cap???

[/ QUOTE ]Wait! You're putting words in my mouth.

But yes, I am not going to fold to a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
You are behind so many hands and by continuing to bet you are creating a bigger pot to which you might be getting quartered.

[/ QUOTE ]or sixthed, or eighthed. Yes, that's a risk.
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to play this hand use pot control and keep the pot small as you can only win half of it unless a 4 comes and that still might not be good,

[/ QUOTE ]In a limit Omaha-8 ring game, I'm always going to play this hand. I might not play it in a tournament, depending, and I can't speak for pot limit play. But there's no doubt about my playing this hand in a limit ring game. It's not a close decision.
[ QUOTE ]
My advice do not play this hand check the flop, and get away if someone bets.

[/ QUOTE ]Wow.
[ QUOTE ]
Play hands in which you can win both sides,

[/ QUOTE ]Of course.
[ QUOTE ]
when you start playing omaha 8 to win just one side that is when you will start loosing alot of money

[/ QUOTE ]That's too tight for me. It takes good judgment to play well after the flop, and how best to play always depends on your opponents, but I think you leave a lot of money behind if you fold everytime you don't have a two-way hand after the flop.

Sometimes you can promote those hands that seem one way hands to scoopers. I don't think that's probably the case here, but a four of spades on the turn and then a ten of spades on the river, and maybe the hand does get promoted - I don't think that's going to happen, but something else might. I honestly don't think something else is going to happen to give Hero a scooper here either, but I think Hero should play so as to be able to take advantage of opportunities when they present themselves.

I still like betting this flop. If you are incapable of understanding, so be it.

Lastly, allow me to point out that if you play too tightly you are very exploitable. Too loose is obviously not good. But too tight, though not as bad as too loose, is also not good.

Buzz

cjs · #10 09-26-2007, 08:41 PM

Buzz you seem to like to lead the flop in a lot of different situations. It seems to make putting you on a hand very difficult. However you don't seem to have to hit the flop hard to take the initiative in a hand. Is that a true indication of your flop thoughts? Does this get you in trouble on later streets in your hands?