AQ, very tough hand, what line?

[DaycareInferno]

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If we lead the flop, what hands raise?

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hrm. i wouldn't really think of it like that. mainly what i'm getting at is this. you're in a 3 way pot without the lead, and a medium/strong hand. leading out in this situation reps a super strong hand, which is bad to rep with a medium/strong hand unless you're playing against really bad players. if you wanna rep something super strong, you should either have a super strong hand or air most of the time.

edit: guess its just HU, but that doesn't really change things all that much.

[CobraGoat]

as played (def. fold or RR pre) you can really only c/c the flop. turn i either dump or b/f.

[Chicago Twister]

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If we lead the flop, what hands raise?

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hrm. i wouldn't really think of it like that. mainly what i'm getting at is this. you're in a 3 way pot without the lead, and a medium/strong hand. leading out in this situation reps a super strong hand, which is bad to rep with a medium/strong hand unless you're playing against really bad players. if you wanna rep something super strong, you should either have a super strong hand or air most of the time.

edit: guess its just HU, but that doesn't really change things all that much.

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Here's where I'm coming from.

One of my standard line would be to bet the flop, check the turn, then VB the river if the turn checks thru or check-evaluate the river if he bets the turn.

This way we get max value from hands like pocket underpairs by never sscaring them away, but we still keep the pot small so we can ourselves get away if the opponent wakes up with a very strong hand. This all depends on the idea that if we lead the flop, it might rep a strong hand but it will look suspicious. Suispicios enough so a hand like QQ will say "I'll call one time." Then when we check the turn it only confirms his suspcions that we do, in fact, have crap. He still will not usually bet the turn however because he doesnt want to get check-raised. So check-check. (Edit: this is also a sexy spot for a stack-a-donk with the right hand against the right opponent. This is not that.) Now when we bet the river he will have already convinced himself that we are just being a dork and he will call. If at any point he raises (flop or river) it is usually because he has such a strong hand that he is thinking at the 1st level, and we can (generally) safely fold.

This is all of course very player-dependant, but in my experience most unknowns will fall in to this category. This all falls apart the worst against very aggressive opponents who could raise with air, but that isn't most opponents.

Edit this is also all dependant on the fact that we didn't 3bet pre, which would totally change the hand. I think we generally should 3bet pre.

[scatt_man]

Re raise pre ... as played i think you gotta call the river

[Up-grey-de]

Chicago Twister, here are my thoughts on the flop (ignore preflop, I should have 3-bet).
If I check this flop, he is going to bet both his missed hands and his strong hands, and it is more probable that he missed/is weak.
If we lead flop, he is going to fold most hands that are worse than mine, and I have gained no value, but if we check he will bet both his worse and better hands.
So IMO it is EV+ to check flop since we will get more value from the hand than if we lead.

I like this discussion, plz keep on debating wether it is EV+ to c/c or lead flop.

[nazahl]

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(def. fold or RR pre)

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why are people saying this?

[Chicago Twister]

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(def. fold or RR pre)

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why are people saying this?

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Because by simply flatting pre you reduce yourself to basically playing fit-or-fold postflop. If we had position we would have an additional way to win: by judging the opponent's range and leveraging our position when he is weak. But since we are OOP and flatted, that option is gone. Now he is the one with positional advantage, and we will forever be at his mercy. If we flop nothing (which we will 67% of the time) we'll have to just fold to his CB. If we flop something, bet, and are raised, now we're in a very difficult spot because he is telling us he can beat TP. Since the pot is large we'll have a hard time folding, but every time we call we light another $100 bill on fire. Pushing is even worse because it is nothing more than a bluff.

Its much better to either take the initiative yourself by 3betting pre, or just avoiding the situation completely by folding. There is no shame in folding, either.

[Chicago Twister]

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If we lead flop, he is going to fold most hands that are worse than mine

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Highlighted is the key. If this is in fact true, then yes you are 100% correct. I guess the debate for me comes down to wheter or not this is true. In my experience it is not. Again it is completely player dependant, but I find that many players will react as I described. YMMV

[EgoSlasher]

Lead the flop, if people insta fold A hi boards then raise more and c bet every a hi board possible, you'll make more over time doing that. But, people do not insta muck A hi boards so bet and try to have money only go in on 2 streets.


Given how you've played this I don't see how you can fold here.

[brizzology]

I agree with fold or RR preflop.

Given the preflop call, why is no one C/R the flop here? You'll get a much better understanding of where you stand.