Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand

[Nick Royale]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

[chiTown22]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

[pineapple888]

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card. I'm not a big fan of going broke here at all, but I do prefer waiting until the turn to move, if you are hell-bent on getting your stack in.

[sh58]

against an unknown i think calling the minraise is the standard line. there are several cards on the turn that give you an easy decision if he keeps firing

i don't like the 3bet because whilst we can get called by worse we don't really know what this villain is capable of

[pineapple888]

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Well I think you are assuming too deep a level of thinking by some random unknown. But if that's your judgment, there's no more to be said, I guess.

[Nick Royale]

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Well I think you are assuming too deep a level of thinking by some random unknown. But if that's your judgment, there's no more to be said, I guess.

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I'm not assuming any deep thinking at all. You're just focusing on the one line where I say villain isn't likely to put you on a Q and ignore the rest of my post.

If anything I overestimate how often a random player will bluff the flop. That's fine if you disagree with, I don't think folding is that big of a mistake but with my estimations I think crai on the turn is best.

As for the part you were referring to, I think it would be bad to assume villain is clueless and fear you having Qx. I agree this will sometimes be the case, but more often a player that's bluffy enough to bluff the flop will see the Q as a reason/excuse to bet the turn.

[Nick Royale]

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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Like pineapple said: "The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card."

3-betting the flop will get him to fold his bluffs and maybe his semi-bluffs. Also he might still call the turn with his 13-outers (like 54) getting decent odds.

[orange]

i dont like 3-betting flop, i like calling and evaluating. as played, check and see what he does. the Q changed little.

[chiTown22]

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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Like pineapple said: "The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card."

3-betting the flop will get him to fold his bluffs and maybe his semi-bluffs. Also he might still call the turn with his 13-outers (like 54) getting decent odds.

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Gotcha,

Summary to confirm my understanding of your point:
So any turn card that does not hit obvious draws you would commit to the hand with a check raise. By doing this you are able to increase the probability that the guy puts more bad money into the middle.

If he has the two pair or set then we get stacked just the same as we would have on the flop.

If a draw card comes and he was on a complete bluff, his bluff works... good for him.

[JackAll]

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I'm OOP and won't most turn cards hurt me as oppose to helping me?

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Yes, so call and lead/fold turn.