1-2 at Commerce

[PokerBob]

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Against tongni's checkraise I prefer not reraising the flop, and also, I would now fold on this turn. In my view folding > raising > calling.

Why no flop reraise?: His hand range is a lot smaller here than most people realize. It is very much weighted towards set, AK, KQ, and maybe the occasional QJ or flush draw (I say occasional because he's not an idiot and sees you raised UTG and bet on the flop, he is aware there's some percent chance his checkraise gets 3-bet because that board hits your UTG range hard a ton).

I know there's some value in knocking out 2 other opponents, but it's a situation that doesn't matter at all vs his checkraising range.

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isn't tongni good enough to fold KQ on the river if we barrell every street after 3 boning the flop?

[Schneids]

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Against tongni's checkraise I prefer not reraising the flop, and also, I would now fold on this turn. In my view folding > raising > calling.

Why no flop reraise?: His hand range is a lot smaller here than most people realize. It is very much weighted towards set, AK, KQ, and maybe the occasional QJ or flush draw (I say occasional because he's not an idiot and sees you raised UTG and bet on the flop, he is aware there's some percent chance his checkraise gets 3-bet because that board hits your UTG range hard a ton).

I know there's some value in knocking out 2 other opponents, but it's a situation that doesn't matter at all vs his checkraising range.

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isn't tongni good enough to fold KQ on the river if we barrell every street after 3 boning the flop?

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Sure it's possible (though not a sure thing at all), but that's such a small portion of his hand range IMO, that it'd be a -EV play to be trying to get him to fold that when there's still the sets and AK and KT to be worrying about.

[Mig]

I don't think he slow plays (just call) AK preflop vs 4 players so I believe we have to put more value on the flush draw and OESD type of hands. I'd prefer to 3 bet it right now hand have a hand having 6-7 clean outs vs our hand to fold. Maybe we can get a fold from all the gutters hands which would be really great for our hand... We might not have the best hand right now but I don't think he will overplay a hand like AK/KQ on the flop since this flop is so good for a UTG raiser. Even with TPTK, I'd slow down a lot when UTG 3 bets.

[mike l.]

"I don't understand the flop re-raise that a lot of people are recommending."

it's the lesser of 3 evils. this one reason why raising in that spot with ATo in that game is such a bad idea, it puts you in uncomfortable oop spots postflop way too often.

"I don't think we're ahead here enough nor can we get a better hand to fold enough to make it profitable."

true. but we can get gutshots behind us of which there are plenty to fold for two more bets some of the time and get it heads up in position with what might be a draw or a K that is not good enough for tongni to want to play very aggressively thus saving hero money.


"I guess part of it is if we think that Tongni will fire the turn again with the flush draw."

there's a very good chance he's too smart to do that and will smell a turn raise coming.

[vincevegas]

I purposely did not 3 bet the flop because neither player behind me is folding a K here (for 2 bets on the flop) and I now have the initiative and have to go to showdown and can not win most likely (without improving).....since we were 4 handed there is a decent chance that he has a flush draw or QJ building a pot with 4 ways so planned on raising the turn if it bricked and forcing the bad K behind me to fold or call 2 cold with a draw and then I will check the river to see if I was against a K or draw......It is very hard for him to 3 bet me on the turn or lead the river here with just a K (as my hand looks very strong) so if a blank rolls off and he 3 bets my turn raise I can probably just ditch it.......

Now the Diamond comes off and it makes me stop because now I am significantly behind a larger range of his hands, but a raise here does enable me to get a K to fold behind me on the off chance he has qj (I know its the least likely hand, but still possible) and get a better draw behind me to fold in case he just has a K or K4s (2 pair) both of these hands I have 14 outs against if I can clean up my outs......

Thoughts?

[Kirby99]

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......It is very hard for him to 3 bet me on the turn or lead the river here with just a K (as my hand looks very strong) so if a blank rolls off and he 3 bets my turn raise I can probably just ditch it.......




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I may suck at poker but I definitely would not read your hand as strong if you took this line. If a blank rolled off on the turn and you raised you can never have a big hand right? If a complete blank came on the turn and you raised me, if I was in Tongni's spot I would 3 bet if I had a draw and I would call and donk a safe river if I had a king. Am I the only one that feels this way?
Anyway thats beside the point, a bad card came on the turn and now I think it's time to just fold it.
I also don't think that tony is ever folding KQ, I know I certainly wouldn't.

[Michael Davis]

"I purposely did not 3 bet the flop because neither player behind me is folding a K here (for 2 bets on the flop)"

Why are you putting anyone behind you on a K? Also, I don't think anyone who suggested threebet was expecting you to fold out a better hand.

-Michael

[vincevegas]

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......It is very hard for him to 3 bet me on the turn or lead the river here with just a K (as my hand looks very strong) so if a blank rolls off and he 3 bets my turn raise I can probably just ditch it.......




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I may suck at poker but I definitely would not read your hand as strong if you took this line. If a blank rolled off on the turn and you raised you can never have a big hand right? If a complete blank came on the turn and you raised me, if I was in Tongni's spot I would 3 bet if I had a draw and I would call and donk a safe river if I had a king. Am I the only one that feels this way?


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Really? I 90% of the time would play AA, AK, TT or if I happen to raise UTG (not normally, but if had) 44 or KTs this exact way....i want to punish the draws on that draw heavy board...3 betting the flop with the aggression directly on your right can not be right....protecting your hand and making the draw pay a big price with one card to come has to be your priority....if you play kq the way you suggest against me in the exact way you described is a losing way....maybe against others, but I have KQ beat WAY more often than not.

Not sure when the diamond rolls off if folding is better or raising, but I really think the line I planned on taking if a blank rolls off is correct....

Oh and you dont suck at poker, I respect your opinion a lot.

Other opinions.....

[Mig]

Vince, you have a made hand which is very very vulnerable. If a Q,J,9, diamond fall on the turn it will kill your action a lot. I know I'm going to freeze if any of these card fall because now you don't beat anything and you might get 3 bet by either of these players who caught their gutshot/ 2 pairs for free. If you just call they will be getting 1:16 on their call + implied odds. Instead if you raises they will have to call 2 and maybe 3 if tong caps it, so you "might" get a fold from the hands drawing live against you like J9s/AJ/AQ/TQ/JT and the like. A turn raise has some merit but not on that draw heavy board with such a weak made hand.

[Kayber2]

I used to always 3bet this flop but now I do this only occasionally since I seemed to always run into a big hand here. At any rate I think either option is ok but lean 80% toward just a call and deciding what to do on the turn.

Now that the diamond rolls I think it's time to ditch the hand. We only beat the QJ and we don't really have a strong flush re-draw. I think hoping to raise out a KQ is reasonable but that also assumes we're not up against a flush redraw so we'd have to fire yet another barrel into a big pot against a smart player. Plus we might be up against a set. Seems like we're pushing too hard and thinking very optimistically if we raise.

I fold and really never raise here.