Q7s MONSTER hand - Page 2

Heisenb3rg · #11 08-31-2007, 01:54 AM

The key assumption is the agression level of your opponents.

Against spew monkies or very agressive players this is the easiest 3-bet ever.
Against ABC tight players, I play it the same as stox.. possibly donking the river.

Against an unknown it probabily depends on your stake, but would lean strongly towards 3-beting.

The key to this hand is the pre-flop raisers position. Since he is on the button and you are defending.. You should both know each other has a wide range.
Therefore, you as the BB should be re-stealing a lot on flops like this, since most of his range didnt hit it. The button should know this and should not put the BB's range as Q heavy when he gets c/r on this flop.

Once the next queen comes on the turn, the button should know that its even less likely BB has the queen, so the button can counter this by raising with all types of crap.
Bluffs/Draws/FSD hands/ 88 for value.

Then when you 3-bet.. you still dont necessarily have a Q because you should know he knows all this... So he may 4-bet a really good draw or pay off with a pair. Plenty of hands for your 3-bet to have good equity.

Every sequence of action up to your 3-bet is profitable with a decent % of hands for both you and the PFR.. Im not assuming spazzy play.

If you put buttons position as UTG, now the situation changes entirely.

JacksonTens · #12 08-31-2007, 01:57 AM

If Stox did it, it isn't bad!

Damn you haters! Stox is not Gatorade! He has a book!

JT

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Stox

stoxtrader · #13 08-31-2007, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the turn silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not an easy hand, but 3 betting the turn can sometimes produce the negative outcome of:

A) getting a worse hand that is drawing dead or near dead to fold

B) allowing a better hand that has you drawing thin to dead to 4 bet

weigh this (weighted average bets*frequency) against getting value from worse hands, INCLUDING all possible river actions, and I think my line here is strong.

Freganism · #14 08-31-2007, 03:24 AM

I second stox line here. Our hand is so well defined that we need to have a good read that opponent is going for a free card, to 3-bet turn. Aggressive or not is not that big factor to base our decision on.

sonartec · #15 08-31-2007, 06:36 AM

surely villain in this hand will be free show down raising with a hell of alot of his range here, i bet/call the river.

baronzeus · #16 08-31-2007, 10:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the turn silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not an easy hand, but 3 betting the turn can sometimes produce the negative outcome of:

A) getting a worse hand that is drawing dead or near dead to fold

B) allowing a better hand that has you drawing thin to dead to 4 bet

weigh this (weighted average bets*frequency) against getting value from worse hands, INCLUDING all possible river actions, and I think my line here is strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty much perfect advice here

i strongly advocate just calling here on the turn

rafiki · #17 08-31-2007, 11:13 AM

ya I really like a call here. And even if we're behind, we have a sweet draw.

Is river 7 or diamond a check raise 100% of time ? or bet/raise ?

Tryptamean · #18 08-31-2007, 12:18 PM

I've actually starting playing like this in these types situations based solely on stox videos. It feels kind of dirty when they value bet their A8 or whatever on the river. However, you feel like a genius when they barrel off with air or have you crushed. I'm still unsure whether I like it or not.

Heisenb3rg · #19 08-31-2007, 01:06 PM

I understand stoxs logic, and it's perfectly applicable to a UTG or a HJ raiser..
But against a button raiser, it's a little too weak as part of an overall strategy.

This isnt a imeddiatly bceause of the % of queens has he has in his raising distribution, but it's a consequence of the correct increased agression/showdown levels of both you and your opponent when your in a wider range situation.

Wider ranges call for more agressive play.

A good very agressive player will run you over if you play like this on the turn..
Since a 3-bet on turn from you on a similiar turn is going to be done infrequently, he can easily raise a huge range on this turn, blunting your agressive re-steal strategy on the flop.. If its done frequently, theres a ton of air in your range and he has an easy 4-bet bluff.

Having a very strong yet fairly wide 3-betting range on this turn strengthens your flop re-stealing strategy..

More money is going to be made in these situations folding out his air when you have air, than squeezing an extra small bet out when you have a strong hand. Creating a strategy that makes him fear re-taking the initative is essential when both of you have wide ranges and the board is not too scary.

Tryptamean · #20 08-31-2007, 01:24 PM

That seems pretty spewy to be thinking about ways to fold out an opponents air by 3betting when he calls a flop c/r and raises the turn. In a heads up game I can see that coming up more often, or if there is enough history between the two of you the reads you've developed would be included in the hand history.