10k$ EPT Monte Carlo: Hand vs Greg Raymer

[nath]

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call the reraise pf and play poker. getting 160 BB in the middle w/AKo pf is awful.

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Man, and I was just thinking to myself "You know what HSMTT needs more of? Generic, context-free clichéd advice without explanation or elaboration."

[snelgrave]

apologies. i don't play this high, so my advice means little. to elaborate - if hero has been very active, the 4 bet is fine, but hero has to realize he is turning his hand into a bluff (unless Raymor is able to shove AQ or AJ when playing that deep). obv if hero has a read that's different. Perhaps Raymor is tilting from losing a big pot. As played it's prob a break even call of the push, but I'd let it go at that point.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
apologies. i don't play this high, so my advice means little. to elaborate - if hero has been very active, the 4 bet is fine, but hero has to realize he is turning his hand into a bluff (unless Raymor is able to shove AQ or AJ when playing that deep). obv if hero has a read that's different. Perhaps Raymor is tilting from losing a big pot. As played it's prob a break even call of the push, but I'd let it go at that point.

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No problem. It's just that a couple of the things you wrote were generic and empty phrases that didn't mean much. Here we're trying to get into actual analysis of why or how a certain line is correct in a given spot, and stay away from blanket statements that don't really mean anything or come from old and outdated advice.

[betgo]

If you analyze it, the 4-bet is probably a little better than a flat call. There is an advantage to flat calling and seeing the flop with position. If Raymer folds to the 4-bet, that is not a great result, but OK. If he pushes, then you have a borderline decision, so that is not a great result. If he calls, that is sort of good, as you built the pot with a very strong hand and position.

When Raymer, pushes, you are probably a little ahead of pot odds. This is button versus BB with 2 aggressive players. How both players have been playing, particularly against each other in late position, is also relevant.

[shaniac]

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If you analyze it, the 4-bet is probably a little better than a flat call. There is an advantage to flat calling and seeing the flop with position. If Raymer folds to the 4-bet, that is not a great result, but OK. If he pushes, then you have a borderline decision, so that is not a great result. If he calls, that is sort of good, as you built the pot with a very strong hand and position.

When Raymer, pushes, you are probably a little ahead of pot odds. This is button versus BB with 2 aggressive players. How both players have been playing, particularly against each other in late position, is also relevant.

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You say that 4-betting is "probably a little better" than a call and then list a bunch of reasons why it's really not. I also don't think it is possible for there to be enough history in level 1 of a tournament to be able to know when it's correct to devise a line that will let you stack off with AK for this many chips.

I hate the 4-bet even more because it compels hero to call the push.

[betgo]

I think it is pretty close between a 4-bet and a call. All the factors I indicate are kind of borderline. I thought calling was better, but when I analyze it, 4-betting gets an OK, but not great result, whatever Raymer does.

I wouldn't 4-bet without calling a push. The 4-bet may provoke Raymer to bluff push with a dominated hand.

[aejones]

i'd probably 4-bet and call a shove quickly

[RobertJohn]

After you four-bet, you’re getting ~ 1.48-to-1 to call his all-in. If you believe he would do this with like TT+ and AK, then your equity makes this break-even. If you weight it heavily towards TT+ rather than AK than it becomes slightly negative.

When he 3-bets you, you still have over 15x his raise amount (the pot size after his 3-bet represents like 8% of your stack) and you’re in position. Your expectation is probably greater than 0 in this situation with AK.

Granted you forego winning the pot immediately (the times he is bluff-raising you from the SB or will lay down a PP or a worse non-pair hand to a 4-bet), but you avoid the situation of facing a five-bet move that doesn’t give you much of an edge.

[kenny7]

First of all,I do not play this high,not even close,so if I'm sounding like a complete donk,I'm sorry.

However...what's wrong with a call here? I know Raymer is superaggressive,and def capable of making a move here,but shouldn't the fact that we get to play this hand in pos factor in? This early on,what is the value of playing an ai pot preflop w A high?

Someone said that he(Raymer) is loaded so he doesn't care,he'll just push. I can't believe that.He might be super-rich,but even if the money doesn't matter,his reputation certainly does,and he def comes across as someone who takes the game seriously,so I doubt if he doesn't care.

[shaniac]

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i'd probably 4-bet and call a shove quickly

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you're not serious right?