Thoughts on CCing 2 more in BB with small PP?

yellowjack · #1 08-03-2007, 05:40 PM

The following scenario is taken from Stox's book:

No reads on either villain.

Villain #1 from UTG-CO who raises, Villain #2 HJ-SB 3-bets, Hero is in BB w/ 88-66.

Stox recommends calling with these, but calling with smaller PP if BTN and SB are more aggressive than usual postflop, while folding 77 and 66 is BTN and SB are less aggressive postflop. The reason for this is in the implied odds to make up for the poor pot odds preflop in flopping a set.

Before this, I had been either capping or folding but this apparently may be a leak. How many of you have been playing in the way Stox recommends, and in general do you feel it has been a winning play for you?

yourface · #2 08-03-2007, 05:46 PM

I call 2 with some stuff. depends on my hand and the players. if there is a good chance the button will fold I will always cap if I am going to keep playing, but if the button will never fold calling gives us good relative position to defend our hand on the flop. this is especially useful with the mid PP type hands. also we get some more info about buttons hand

StellarWind · #3 08-03-2007, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I call 2 with some stuff. depends on my hand and the players. if there is a good chance the button will fold I will always cap if I am going to keep playing, but if the button will never fold calling gives us good relative position to defend our hand on the flop. this is especially useful with the mid PP type hands. also we get some more info about buttons hand

[/ QUOTE ]
We have bad relative position in this scenario. We have to act on the 3-bettor's continuation bet with the original opener sitting behind us. That's a very bad thing whether we are trying to get paid for a set or merely wondering whether our unimproved pair is playable.

callmedonnie · #4 08-03-2007, 06:22 PM

I typically call in this spot. If I think I can get HU with the 3 bettor, I can cap. But I have to really think I can do this. Against two maniacs just pounding each other, just call, play for set value, and fold otherwise.

I used to play it the same way as you. Its not a huge leak, but I think his point is that against two bad players its too good an opportunity to win a big pot. That said though, you chance of winning w/out improving or getting the pot HU are rare, hence calling has value.

I also used to religiously 3bet or fold OTB w/ hands like 66-88 with a raise and a cold call. I know the situation is different, but I think some of same concepts apply. I've come to realize at the right table, calling there is fine. I think w/ T9s its fine too.

yellowjack · #5 08-03-2007, 06:25 PM

Correction, as yourface and Stellar noted: The situation is that CO/BTN has opened, and SB has 3 bet. Not what I stated in original post.

yourface · #6 08-03-2007, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call 2 with some stuff. depends on my hand and the players. if there is a good chance the button will fold I will always cap if I am going to keep playing, but if the button will never fold calling gives us good relative position to defend our hand on the flop. this is especially useful with the mid PP type hands. also we get some more info about buttons hand

[/ QUOTE ]
We have bad relative position in this scenario. We have to act on the 3-bettor's continuation bet with the original opener sitting behind us. That's a very bad thing whether we are trying to get paid for a set or merely wondering whether our unimproved pair is playable.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's valuable to be able to face the button with 2 bets cold on a favourable flop when we have a hand like 88. pushing out a 6 out draw in a 10SB pot is pretty sweet

Heisenb3rg · #7 08-03-2007, 07:09 PM

The key whether to fold/CC or cap in these scenarios depends on your opponents pre-flop ranges and calling tendencies.

If you have a TAG opening in the button, a bad and loose agressive player 3-betting in the SB, I cap nearly any of the PP's I intend to play. For the mid pocket pair type hands you really want the TAG out.. and you know they will likely fold a good % of their range to your cap. Certaintly worth the extra investment. Your hand does well against the LAG's range, and you have a very nice overlay if it's not.
You've also "bought position" on the LAG.

Replace the TAG with a bad player who will always call your cap, and now you'd probabily just want to call.. While the value of your pair itself goes down because of this LAG nature, the value of hitting your set goes up.. (should be obvious). So your looking to get in cheap, isolate with favorible flops UI, fold bad flops and go to war when you hit your set.
Of course, with higher PPs you now start to have a sizable equity edge, so you WANT to bloat a bigger pot, since you can withstand heat UI on many flops, as well the agression youll recieve when you hit your set.

yellowjack · #8 08-04-2007, 03:39 AM

As always thanks for the input all, even those killing the thread.

I just wanted to add that I'm throwing in AJs and AQo in the range I would coldcall with PF, to widen the range a bit without losing much value.

sethypooh21 · #9 08-04-2007, 04:30 AM

Heis, I see what you are saying about capping, and maybe in the 10/20 and up there are Tags who somewhat routinely raise/fold PF (I haven't seen them though). But in most limits covered by this forum, capping with the expectation of folding out is pure spew. 88+ might be a cap for value, but that's a different question. And in the situation where it's a cap for value, the villains are likely aggro enough that playing it for implied odds set value is even better option.

Heisenb3rg · #10 08-04-2007, 04:43 AM

Yeah youd want a read of "solid play" to do it. Im assuming the tightness in TAG extends to all aspects of their game. Clearly this isn't always the case.

Yellowjack plays in some fishy games but he also plays 10/20 and 15/30 where im sure there are players that fit that criteria.

"routinetly" raise/folding you make it sound bad or a leak. It's pretty rare for a SB to 3-bet and you to cap AND them having a hand with reverse implied... If SB was 100/100 then clearly buttons range for calling your cap will widen..

EG tons of hands like K9o, A7o, Q9o, are WELL within a TAG's range on the button it's the easiest fold ever to a 3-bet and a cap from anotehr solid player. I think the vast majority of even fairly good players would realize this.

Investing that extra SB for the HUGE advantage knocking a hand like that out (say 15% of his range) when your equity is basically neglicable is SOO worth it imo. Again, im generalizing. Depends on the players.