200NL: DEEP AA vs strange TagFish...

SirFelixCat · #1 09-25-2007, 08:02 AM

Villain is the oddest 21/15/2.8. I've seen him call raises both IP and OOP with what seems like ATC.

Play every street for me, please. I was running 22/18ish at this table, but he was on a couple of different tables with me. This is our first big confrontation.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $97.90
BB: $210.40
UTG: $246.00
MP: $151.20
Hero (CO): $496.55
BTN: $450.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $8.00, BTN calls $8.00, SB calls $7.00, BB calls $6.00

 Well, that was unexpected. I hadn't been out-of-line at all at this table and having that many callers had me worried a bit here. That plays into the flop bet size. 

Flop: ($32) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $22.00, BTN calls $22.00, 2 folds

 In hindsight, I think that I should have bet more on the flop, but when I'm betting into the field on a dry board, do I NEED to bet more here? Doesn't this represent enough strength?

Turn: ($76) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $54.00, BTN raises to $154.00, Hero ???

I'm wondering if c/c is better here? Then either blocking river or c/c? I'm open for thoughts here.

After some thoughts here, I'll post two other hands played by villain AFTER this one that makes my best play more evident?

Merlinius · #2 09-25-2007, 08:10 AM

I think your line is fine. You could bet a little more on the flop, of course. Nevertheless, I like the turn bet because you get most value of any Q and can easily fold to a raise which I think is the correct decision here. On a board like this I think it is pretty unlikely someone will bluffraise the flop for almost a whole stack after you have shown so much strength. That he is raising with a one pair hand only is very unlikely, too, imo without further reads.

Bramsterdam · #3 09-25-2007, 08:12 AM

I like a turn check here, because I don't think that you'll lose value by checking one street. I think that this is more important than protecting your hand versus possible draws. Your bet size on the flop is fine imo.

As played there's obviously no way you can continue with the hand.

dirtylobster · #4 09-25-2007, 08:45 AM

I'd go for pot control 200+bb deep w/ only an overpair when the flop is 4-way. Obviously bet the flop but I'd be inclined to check the turn and go from there, the board is pretty dry. You said you've seen him call raises w/ ATC but have you seen him raise? This deep I would probably fold turn as played.

Michaelson · #5 09-25-2007, 09:03 AM

Michaelson's theorom: When a tagfish raises the turn in a big pot >200bb deep, your one pair is no good.

This is a tough hand to play, though. It looks to me like Villain has flopped a set and just called your flop bet to try for action on a relatively dry board with a lot of players behind, but I think that only because I have the benefit of knowing he raises the turn.

On the turn I would consider a check/call, but that gives up control of a big pot we're OOP in and with a hand we are unsure about... Are we check/calling two streets? Bet/folding is okay, but the river's going to suck if we are just called.

I don't know, I probably bet/fold, and check the river to see what he does, I don't much like it though.

SirFelixCat · #6 09-25-2007, 09:09 AM

The $$$ question is if we check turn, do we c/c turn then c/c river? I mean, this illustrates why being OOP is teh suck.

Yeah, I felt horribly weak here, but I did muck:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $97.90
BB: $210.40
UTG: $246.00
MP: $151.20
Hero (CO): $496.55
BTN: $450.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $8.00, BTN calls $8.00, SB calls $7.00, BB calls $6.00

Flop: ($32) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $22.00, BTN calls $22.00, 2 folds

Turn: ($76) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $54.00, BTN raises to $154.00, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $100.00 returned to BTN

Pot Size: $184.00 ($3 Rake)

Now, two hands that he played AFTER the above AA hand. I'm curious, does this change anyone's perception of villain and how to play my hand now?

First:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $177.25
Hero (BB): $393.55
UTG: $536.10
CO: $203.40
BTN: $332.90

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG calls $2.00, 2 folds, SB calls $1.00, Hero checks

Flop: ($6) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6.00, UTG calls $6.00, SB folds

Turn: ($18) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $14.00, UTG calls $14.00

River: ($46) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

Pot Size: $46.00 ($2.30 Rake)

UTG had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON (+$21.70)
Hero had J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ([Jh 7s] a pair of Sevens) and LOST (-$22.00)

Second:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $186.00
BB: $472.15
UTG: $129.25
Hero (BTN): $217.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8.00, SB folds, BB raises to $25.00, Hero calls $17.00

Flop: ($51) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $38.00, BB raises to $100.00, Hero raises all-in to $192.05, BB calls $92.05

Turn: ($435.10) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($435.10) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $435.10 ($2 Rake)

BB had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Jacks and Sevens) and LOST (-$217.05)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Jacks) and WON (+$216.05)

dirtylobster · #7 09-25-2007, 09:19 AM

How come he's on your immediate right in the first two hands but not the third?

Edit: NVM, it was another table.

Michaelson · #8 09-25-2007, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was running 22/18ish at this table, but he was on a couple of different tables with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like he was just a regular fish to me.

pureklas · #9 09-25-2007, 09:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like a turn check here, because I don't think that you'll lose value by checking one street. I think that this is more important than protecting your hand versus possible draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you lose value against AQ, KQ, QJ, T9, 65. You must bet the turn. Bet/folding >>> check/calling

Bramsterdam · #10 09-25-2007, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like a turn check here, because I don't think that you'll lose value by checking one street. I think that this is more important than protecting your hand versus possible draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you lose value against AQ, KQ, QJ, T9, 65. You must bet the turn. Bet/folding >>> check/calling

[/ QUOTE ]So KJ/QJ is calling 3 streets unimproved? No way. KJ/QJ is more likely to call a river bet then a turn bet imo.

Of course you'll lose some value against draws, but you may also induce a (semi-)bluff when you check to villain, plus you keep the pot managable.