Weird preflop checkup - Page 3

MitchL · #21 10-27-2007, 03:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if we are behind UTG theres a good chance we can control the amount of bets he puts in if we are behind i.e. he will shut down pretty quickly when shown strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that UTG raises 99+ as well, and this gives me more incentive to 3bet.

Misread OP's post, where does it state he is mp1? I assumed we were in later position...

Pretty sure coldcalling 88 for set value with 2 (in most games) in late position is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are not open coldcalling. There is already one coldcaller and as OP said 2 to 3 bad players behind. Also, 1 possible hand in villains range shouldnt sway the decision here. If we dont flop a set the hand is going to be flat out hard to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I am saying. Pending on position, we can't depend on players to call behind on us. Although the game OP is talking about, sounds +ev to cold call here, I believe cold calling in long run is -ev.

I'd most likely dump this hand in most spots, but 3 betting to get villain who is playing with scared money off a better pair after a scary flop is good too.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can assume that we will doing the same against any thinking opposition if the right flop presents itself. No one is saying that if the table dynamic was different it is wrong to 3bet 88. I do against tightish openers all the time, but that is not the crux of this hand. The crux of this hand is whether to 3bet when we expect callers who are loose and have position on us as well as an opener who might have us in bad shape.

Adebisi · #22 10-27-2007, 04:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A scared UTG raises and people are thinkng about 3 betting? The worst hand this guy will have is something AJo or KQs. Both of which our hand isn't that far ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

When a really weak/tight player opens UTG and gets 3-bet by a reasonable player, the weak guy is generally going to put the 3-bettor on QQ+/AK. Even if we don't do real well against his pf range, he's going to be making a ton of bad folds, so he doesn't have nearly the equity his pf range is supposed to have.

Adebisi · #23 10-27-2007, 05:14 AM

For people who think 3-betting is a bad idea:

We're at least cold-calling here, so it really comes down to a 1sb decision. Between the players already in and our call, theres 7.67 sb in the pot already, and there will be at least 10.67 if we 3-bet. Do you think the extra fold equity we gain by 3-betting the weak tight guy is worth a 1sb investment? The worst mistake a player can make in limit holdem is folding the best hand, and here we have a guy that's pretty likely to do so. If 3-betting is wrong equity-wise preflop, it's only wrong by a fraction of a bet.
When UTG folds a higher pocket pair or a 6-out hand in 10+ sb pot, we gain way more than a fraction of a sb. Even if 2 more idiots cold-call 3 and the bb calls, we still probably have close to our fair share of pf equity, and might win a gigantic pot. The cost of jamming it here is very small compared to the good things that it might do for us later in the hand.

One Outer · #24 10-27-2007, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For people who think 3-betting is a bad idea:

We're at least cold-calling here, so it really comes down to a 1sb decision. Between the players already in and our call, theres 7.67 sb in the pot already, and there will be at least 10.67 if we 3-bet. Do you think the extra fold equity we gain by 3-betting the weak tight guy is worth a 1sb investment? The worst mistake a player can make in limit holdem is folding the best hand, and here we have a guy that's pretty likely to do so. If 3-betting is wrong equity-wise preflop, it's only wrong by a fraction of a bet.
When UTG folds a higher pocket pair or a 6-out hand in 10+ sb pot, we gain way more than a fraction of a sb. Even if 2 more idiots cold-call 3 and the bb calls, we still probably have close to our fair share of pf equity, and might win a gigantic pot. The cost of jamming it here is very small compared to the good things that it might do for us later in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes tons of sense.

fivesense · #25 10-27-2007, 08:23 AM

I get what Adebisi is saying and think his line of thinking is good, however im a little nervous players like these tend to tense up and check call alot postflop instead of check folding. I also am not a huge fan of three betting b/c even if our hand will play easier against the weak tightie UTG, if we have, say one or two of the four people behind us to cold call, its going to be a very tough hand to play out. The more i think about this hand the more im in favor of cold calling only because our postflop play will be so superior to other players in the game and i dont want to be trying to create "overlay" when really we are behind to UTG.

Entity · #26 10-27-2007, 01:55 PM

A) I can't imagine 3-betting this preflop given the scenario you've laid out.

B) How the hell do you only have 71 posts? Get on it, man. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

surfdoc · #27 10-27-2007, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For people who think 3-betting is a bad idea:

We're at least cold-calling here, so it really comes down to a 1sb decision. Between the players already in and our call, theres 7.67 sb in the pot already, and there will be at least 10.67 if we 3-bet. Do you think the extra fold equity we gain by 3-betting the weak tight guy is worth a 1sb investment? The worst mistake a player can make in limit holdem is folding the best hand, and here we have a guy that's pretty likely to do so. If 3-betting is wrong equity-wise preflop, it's only wrong by a fraction of a bet.
When UTG folds a higher pocket pair or a 6-out hand in 10+ sb pot, we gain way more than a fraction of a sb. Even if 2 more idiots cold-call 3 and the bb calls, we still probably have close to our fair share of pf equity, and might win a gigantic pot. The cost of jamming it here is very small compared to the good things that it might do for us later in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes tons of sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for the fact that he paints a best case scenario picture and ignores the impact that 3 betting has on our implied and reverse implied odds.

hoppscot22 · #28 10-27-2007, 03:30 PM

factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

Munchkin Mayor · #29 10-27-2007, 10:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopp, I agree with you...this hand is going to showdown. And unless we spike our 8 or get a straight, I don't think we can win. So in this situation, just call and hope to get a great flop. I think this should be fairly easy to play. If there are a lot of callers, UTG will only bet out if he started out with an overpair to the board or hit something on the flop. UTG +1 will probably bet out with just about anything.

hoppscot22 · #30 10-28-2007, 02:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopp, I agree with you...this hand is going to showdown. And unless we spike our 8 or get a straight, I don't think we can win. So in this situation, just call and hope to get a great flop. I think this should be fairly easy to play. If there are a lot of callers, UTG will only bet out if he started out with an overpair to the board or hit something on the flop. UTG +1 will probably bet out with just about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

munchkin agreeing with me is kinda meh... because he thinks people cheat at canterbury, which isnt true.

but in reality my point (and him agreeing with me is right), cold calling is far superior to raising and i dont even think its very debatable.