A common flop problem...

[krishan]

[ QUOTE ]
I sleep perfectly well c/folding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I know equity isn't everything but you sleep perfectly well folding 42% equity getting 5-1?

Board: Jh 7s 5s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.1986 % 54.83% 02.36% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 42.8014 % 40.44% 02.36% { Ah9c }

Note Villian's range is the best 34% of hands. So it's conservative depending on laggyness.

Krishan

[econophile]

[ QUOTE ]
OK but we examine the standard play. Outside the standard a) and b) are fine but I would engage them much less against a bad player than a good one. The bad player will give you money anyway later especially if he thinks he can run over you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think part of my point was that, for blind defense the pot will always be small and we will always be OOP. So we take those factors as given and then work from there to decide how best to defend our blind.

On a separate note, it's true that against bad players we will probably face much easier decisions later, but there's no guarantee that they won't leave or go bust to someone else before we get that chance.

[keikiwai]

No one re-raises this pf against a LAG, or even against a few more moderate opponents?

I mean a CO steal range goes from J9o, or JTo, (w/ suiteds starting probably at T9s or something) all the way to Ax, plus any pocket pair... so holding the A w/ a medium kicker would seem like a good spot to rr (for equity)...

[Wynton]

Well, let me put it this way.

If I'm sure villain is a LAG, I'd be more inclined to c/r the flop, or call down. But if the guy is a super-LAG postflop, it doesn't seem worth the fight, and I'd rather wait till my hand is slightly better.

Maybe I'm underestimating the strength of A9o?

[Ariose]

What does 5-1 represent? Nothing. You don't get to realize all of your equity when you call the turn. You need to do an effective odds calculation.

[sfwusc]

Why not three bet preflop and show him who is boss.

If you get capped, then the missed flop is a fold. Even crap players usually respect the 3 bet and don't cap with nothing. If this guy is one of those, then fold and take the money later. He will give it away.

SFWUSC

[KDawg]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not three bet preflop and show him who is boss.



[/ QUOTE ]


I was thinking this at first, but, I'm not sure that "showing them whose boss" is a good enough reason. Its hard to say based on the sketch of a read on the villian. Here, I'd prefer to take a flop and work from there. With this flop, I want to CR this bad boy in a big way. It can gain us some FE if the villian has a bigger ace, and it is likely enough that we have the best hand on this board that it is also for value(but, I really don't want to go to showdown with this hand)

[Ignignokt]

Preflop call is bad. You're highly likely to have the best hand vs. someone with a "retarded" pf raising range, so 3-bet, then bet flop. If he caps pf and raises the flop, cut your losses and wait for something better to nail him with.

Playing against a possible maniac is a matter of picking your spots.

Edit: After looking at the responses, I'm assuming they all c/r because we usually have the best hand...?

Because I don't see your garden variety "d00d you gotta keep raising it workz!!!!!1" Saturday night college freshman folding, at least before we've bet the turn AND river AND he didn't pick up any pair whatsoever.

[MyTurn2Raise]

wow...this is a good thread

I, too c/f this and this might be a leak in my game. With position, I'm calling down with ace high all the time. From the blind, I'm c/f a missed flop. Since Krishan is a god IMO, I'll look into playing these more aggressive verse LAG raises and frequent stealers.

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
call the flop

Donk the turn on a safe card, check raise it on any "good" card.

You would be suprised but your likely ahead here over half the time on the flop, but your position sucks terribly and your playing someone you suspect is unaware or frankly just doesn't care. Folding the flop would be wrong, and it's even more wrong if the player gives free turn cards at all, however checkraising the flop won't tell us much and we'll have to lead a turn bet anyway. If you truelly have a maniac then I like check calling all the way, until I hit a pair when I give a little action, or a lot of action on what I think of him or her.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are my thoughts almost exactly.
Good thread though - this IS a commone flop problem.