A 800 lb. gorrlia sandwich

Kumubou · #1 02-16-2006, 08:08 AM

Looks simple... or is it? Or maybe I'm just trying to justify some really counterintutative play.

UTG here is slightly retarded. Loose and passive, with a habit of peeling flops and turns for one bet. However, he will fold hopeless hands for two bets or more. Never raises without a huge hand.

CO is a cutie. TAGgish stats but a bit initative-obsessive. My image relative to him is goot though, as he's bet/bet/bet into me with air and lost enough to slow down on that line. He'll keep betting until you push back, at which point he will further define his hand (fold air, call down with marginal holdings, raise the goods -- standard stuff).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) lolihunter.com (for all of your loli hunting needs)

Preflop: Heroine is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, Heroine caps, 2 folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

Cold cap! The fact that UTG raised (and CO reraised anyway!) is a bit interesting, though... but I have KK and if someone has AA I may as well walk into a tentacle demon because I'm gonna get raped.

Flop: (13.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, Heroine calls, UTG calls.

...or not! Top set on a dry-ass board. Dope!... but then the CO bets into me. What the hell? I'm not quite sure what he thinks my cold-capping range is but I can not imagine it being very wide. For the sake of argument let's say it's AA-QQ, AK.

Let me try to put him on a range here:

AA, because he doesn't fear [censored] and is trying to get me to reraise with something like AK.

AK/KQ because he thinks his hand is range is best against mine and is betting for value -- but if this were the case, would he not checkraise instead? Or maybe he's trying to get the LPP's possible 5-outer out of the pot... urgh. I would fade KQ here because he would be more concerned about AK (on top of AA and KK) there, but I do not know how bright he is...

QQ-TT and he's just getting stupid, praying I fold something like QQ-TT. Or maybe he isn't thinking -- there have been a couple of instances where he raised, I 3-bet him and he donked the flop (whatever the hell it was) for no discernable reason.

Here is the problem: I raise here and the LPP is almost certainly gone unless he has a huge hand (and if he spiked something like a set of 9s, he's going to 3-bet and almost certainly drive the CO out!). Now if the CO has a smaller pair he probably also folds, figuring my range to be narrow and that he's drawing to somewhere between 2 and 0 outs. If he has AA we probably stack off on this flop and he probably slows down after a couple of turn bets. The funny instance here is if he has AK... and I think he slows down fairly quickly with that, because I've been going full throttle since the hand started which really defines my hand at this point -- it's pretty clear I have, at worst, TPTK. So at best he is chopping and would want the LPP's nearly dead money in as long as possible.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, Heroine calls, UTG calls.

Same problem as before, except now I think it's even more likely he folds something like AK -- my flop call after the pre-flop cold-capp followed by a turn raise just screams monster looking to trap, and well what the hell else could I have? It's not like I've been going bananas capping trash pre-flop... maybe I have upset Shania. Who knows.

A raise here is certainly getting rid of the LPP unless he has two spades or T8/64 for the open-ender... but he raised pre-flop, so I doubt he has that.

River: (11.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Heroine bets, insert hot steamy futanari sex scene here.

What am I going to do, check behind with the near-nuts? If someone has 64 or 86 at this point, they deserve my stack. Wryyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Pot: 11.25 beedogs (plus my bet, plus whatever else happens)

Before anyone says "ME GRIMLOCK ME LIKE HAND ME RAISE GRRAWWARARAWRAW", think about what the CO could have, and what the CO thinks I would have given my actions and his actions. zomg third level thinking!

-Dippy

waffle · #2 02-16-2006, 08:14 AM

Peter Harris · #3 02-16-2006, 08:26 AM

this looks fine, i think you extracted the max. If UTG or CO raised with 86 or 64 PF, then you deserve their stack, not the other way round.

I don't see how you can get more bets in. You'd just lose players with worse hands. i suppose if CO has AA you may get more bets in, but at the loss of UTG's guaranteed payoff.

Nice hand.

KrmtDfrog · #4 02-16-2006, 08:46 AM

I'd raise turn. At least one will call by my guesstimation of pulling stuff out of my ass. You may lose someone, but nut peddling by calling 1 bet is just silly at that point. Too many cheap cards will come back to bite you - esp with frush draw now on the table.

waffle · #5 02-16-2006, 01:08 PM

Irc chat follows below.. not too often you get to hear Nikla comment on a SSSH hand.

Code:<hr /><pre>
06:19 <@wafl> cnfuzzd: please tell me you raise the turn in kumu's hand
06:20 <@cnfuzzd> link?
06:20 <@wafl> http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=1#Post4764518
06:21 <@cnfuzzd> " insert hot steamy futanari sex scene here"
06:21 <@cnfuzzd> futanari?
06:21 <@cnfuzzd> whats that?
06:22 <@wafl> Futanari depicts hermaphrodites or females with male sex organs.
06:22 <@cnfuzzd> oh
06:22 <@cnfuzzd> fair enough
06:22 <@cnfuzzd> yes
06:22 <@cnfuzzd> i raise the turn
06:22 < Kumubou> wtf is calling a turn raise?
06:23 < Kumubou> I'm fairly confident UTG is coming along for one but not two
06:23 < Kumubou> the one mitigating factor
06:23 < Kumubou> is that this pot is getting stupid large
06:23 <@cnfuzzd> exactly
06:23 <@cnfuzzd> and
06:23 <@cnfuzzd> co is not folding
06:24 < Kumubou> you sure he calls there with TT-QQ? or even AK?
06:24 < Kumubou> my hand range is narrow as all hell
06:24 < Nikla> horrible play
06:24 <@cnfuzzd> ooh snap
06:25 < Nikla> utg is the threat in the hand
06:25 < Nikla> all kinds of gutshots possible
06:25 < Nikla> CO's range is more narrow
06:25 < Nikla> you dont want him going to riv for 1 bet
06:26 < Nikla> utg that is
06:27 < Kumubou> but he raised pre-flop, and he hasn't done much of that. may not
mean much.
06:27 < Nikla> that board certainly isnt "dry as hell" either
06:28 < Kumubou> if that flop isn't dry
06:28 < Kumubou> what the hell is
06:28 < Nikla> K62 is dry
06:30 < Nikla> whoever played it butchered it pretty good
06:30 < Nikla> thats my opinion anyway
06:32 < Kumubou> I do see your point about raising the turn. winning it right there
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>> losing to some random-ass gutshot that had odds
06:32 < Nikla> who says you're gonna win it right there
06:32 < Nikla> CO can easily have aces or AK
06:32 < Nikla> giving you more action
06:34 < Kumubou> what do you think my hand range is if i cold-cap pre-flop, call the
flop and raise a blank turn?
06:34 < KrmtDfrog> i think turn raise is better here ;/
06:34 < KrmtDfrog> might have gotten an extra bet out of it
06:34 < Nikla> a normal coldcap range for solid players
06:35 < Nikla> is 88-> AQo
06:35 < Kumubou> at 2/4?
06:35 < BostonZak> Whaaaa
06:35 < Kumubou> this isn't 100/200
06:35 < BostonZak> 88-AQo coldcap?
06:35 < KrmtDfrog> i think thats a bit loose
06:35 < BostonZak> Id say more like QQ-AA and maybe AKs
06:36 < KrmtDfrog> i'd say closer to jj - ako
06:36 < Nikla> you fold TT?
06:36 < Nikla> crazy
06:36 < KrmtDfrog> i'd prolly call 3 with tt
06:36 < BostonZak> Depending on who the raisers are
06:36 < BostonZak> I will definately fold TT
06:36 < KrmtDfrog> fold to a bunch of over cards on the flop
06:36 < KrmtDfrog> thats also true
06:37 < KrmtDfrog> in general i wouldn't go apeshit with tt to 3 raises
06:38 < KrmtDfrog> i think you might have gotten an extra bet if you raise flop and
maybe 2 bets if you raise turn
06:38 < KrmtDfrog> well maybe just a sb
06:38 < Nikla> its a given that you need to raise flop or turn
06:39 < KrmtDfrog> nut peddling is fine, but when a 2nd spade hits, i think i raise
that
06:39 < KrmtDfrog> unless u can't see someone calling the preflop with ax spades
06:40 < Nikla> thats no argument
06:40 < KrmtDfrog> which ?
06:40 < Nikla> Ax spades
06:40 < KrmtDfrog> not being able to see anyone at that table calling ax for frush
draw?
06:41 < Nikla> you mean preflop or flop or what?
06:41 < KrmtDfrog> yes
06:41 < Nikla> wihch
06:41 < KrmtDfrog> would UTG or CO be able to call the pf cap with say, ajs?
06:41 < Nikla> ofcourse?
06:41 < KrmtDfrog> most will, i think
06:41 < Kumubou> UTG would
06:41 < Kumubou> CO def. would having 3-bet it
06:42 < Nikla> but still
06:42 < KrmtDfrog> so when 2 spades hit the board
06:42 < Nikla> saying that he shouldnt raise turn
06:42 < Nikla> if he doesnt think spades are out there
06:42 < Nikla> is no argument
06:42 < KrmtDfrog> at least make the draw pay another big bet if it still wants in?
06:42 < Nikla> yes
06:43 < KrmtDfrog> i'm just thinking how embarassing that would be if someone had two
spades and went runner runner because you were calling 1 bet with
the nuts
06:43 < Nikla> calling is obv. wrong
</pre><hr />

milesdyson · #6 02-16-2006, 01:20 PM

raising the flop looks best.

when CO has AK or AA we get to put a ton of bets in on the flop and we have a good chance of getting UTG caught here (a much better chance than on the turn). the board is K9x so JT QJ QT all have gutters and the pot is about 15 bets on the flop. i also highly doubt he folds TT-QQ to a measly flop raise.

danzasmack · #7 02-16-2006, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raising the flop looks best.

when CO has AK or AA we get to put a ton of bets in on the flop and we have a good chance of getting UTG caught here (a much better chance than on the turn). the board is K9x so JT QJ QT all have gutters and the pot is about 15 bets on the flop. i also highly doubt he folds TT-QQ to a measly flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more miles posts the more I agree with him. People don't fold to flop bets often enough to make you scared to raise here.

27offsooot · #8 02-16-2006, 02:15 PM

holy crap, raise the flop. or the turn. just raise.

21times20 · #9 02-16-2006, 02:53 PM

this hand is from 2.00/4.00, not 200/400 right?

[ QUOTE ]
except now I think it's even more likely he folds something like AK -- my flop call after the pre-flop cold-capp followed by a turn raise just screams monster looking to trap, and well what the hell else could I have? It's not like I've been going bananas capping trash pre-flop... maybe I have upset Shania. Who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

look, im sure you have an equally lengthy and convoluted explanation of why the word "futanari" is a part of your regular vocabulary despite being a heterosexual as you do for your play in this hand, but frankly im not buying either one

Ignignokt · #10 02-16-2006, 06:21 PM

This is why you raise this hand on the flop: it's the only street no one will bail on when they capped pf and the board is disconnected.

Add that you have someone who looks willing to 3-bet you and possibly beyond, and you've got a recipe for more $$$ than you get going for the overcall (note the singular).

I'm starting to get fed up with the tons of decisions that are being made based on "extracting the max." The problem with these decisions is that "the max" ends up looking awfully close to "the min." And it's becoming epidemic: I had a recent session where I swear NOBODY would raise anything over TPNK, for fear of "losing the action."

Nobody respects squat at Party 2/4. They're betting their own hands. Raise and don't stop.