NL200 - 2.5 stacks deep w/mid set. Bet size? - Page 2

orange · #11 09-09-2007, 06:55 PM

$165 i think is nice. sets up for a nice river shove.

blah-blah-blah · #12 09-09-2007, 07:04 PM

i don't mind flatting since we have position. I make it $180 and call a shove obv. on the river the only card I might check behind/think about folding to a shove is As. other than that I'm all in on the river w/o a thought.

keikiwai · #13 09-09-2007, 07:10 PM

$150 and call or shove all rivers

blah-blah-blah · #14 09-09-2007, 07:22 PM

question, why are we trying to set up a "nice river shove" here? I would think that we should try and get as much money in on the turn as possible when we're almost definitely good. the reason I would bet small vs. big (150ish vs. 200ish) is if I thought he would call 150 but fold to 200, not to set up a nice sized river shove.

Nick Royale · #15 09-09-2007, 07:33 PM

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$150 and call or shove all rivers

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Agreed. Any decent sized bet will set up for an easy riv shove, $150 will price outs draws, but still get called by draws/AK frequently.

Nick Royale · #16 09-09-2007, 07:48 PM

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Why did you decide to flatcall preflop instead of 3betting?

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Because he was very aggro when someone showed weakness. I knew that if I c-bet flop whit any over card present and he called me, I would have to chk back turn for pot control and likely face a PSB on river form a lot of hands while I might be good. Also did'nt went to let him 4bet PF.

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I think you based this decision too much on avoiding possible hard decision postflop.

Against this particular opponent you have to 3bet for value. You're way ahead of his opening range AND you're ahead of his calling range when you 3bet --> $$

You could be faced with a tough decision postflop when villain plays back at you and the board gets ugly, but you get those situations aswell when you flatcall, only with less money in the pot.

3Bet for value and play well postflop will make you a lot of money against this player.

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I don't really agree with this. Re-raising preflop will not only make the hand easier to play postflop (which is good, playing TT vs a lag 250bb deep will get tricky on tons of boards), but also decrease our skill advantage against this tool. We're basically making this hand play less deep postflop by re-raising preflop and I would assume that our postflop edge vs him is great, especially deep. Bad players don't better than to stick it in with tptk in a raised pot, even 250bb deep which clearly is a mistake. By re-raising preflop we're certainly decreasing the amplitude of this kind of mistake.

Playing this hand un-raised will also be very profitable postflop, we don't at all mind taking the flop 4-ways as in this case and even if it becomes HU we still have an edge vs our opponent that we can capitalize on ip.

Imo we don't need to push our preflop edge, honestly it sounds like an argument that's more suited for limit hold'em where stack sizes, deception, etc doesn't play an equally big role. You don't happened to have played limit in the past?

Melchiades · #17 09-09-2007, 08:44 PM

150. Never ever fold. Get it in on spade or other rivers.

happyjaypee · #18 09-09-2007, 09:27 PM

Since vilain is very aggro and I saw him make big semi-bluff shove, do you like a small turn bet, about 1/3 effective stack, to rep de draw and induce a shove from AK and some draws?

Down side of this is we give better odds to draws and he might call turn, then c/f missed river of course. But we are still giving him bad odds since two spades pair the board.

-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Melchiades · #19 09-09-2007, 09:31 PM

The pot is already big. No need to mess around.

tagWAG · #20 09-09-2007, 09:58 PM

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Why did you decide to flatcall preflop instead of 3betting?

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Because he was very aggro when someone showed weakness. I knew that if I c-bet flop whit any over card present and he called me, I would have to chk back turn for pot control and likely face a PSB on river form a lot of hands while I might be good. Also did'nt went to let him 4bet PF.

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QFT. Flat calling is best.

TT has fantastic implied stacking value v a lag like this, why turn it into a bluff v villain's calling range?? 3 betting actually destroys your implied value.

If you 3 bet, at teh very least you play into villain's hands because when overcards hit the flop, his natural tendencies to bluff at scarecards just make it hard for you to play the hand correctly, and prob cost you money.

Hands like TT-88 are prob the worst possible hands to 3 bet with OOP versus this guy.