Have a set. Spew?

[matrix]

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I don't see a difference between 77 and an SC - either way, it usually "flops badly and turns into air".

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76s hits paydirt on a 3 flush board when we flop a flush a 589 89T 345 458 board on 66x 77x 666 and 777 flop - thats not a lot of flops out of all the possible combinations.

77 makes a strong hand and NOT a draw on ANY flop with a 7 in it. That sc is "turning into air" waaaaaaay more often than your small pair is. Also 77 will sometimes (rarely yes) win a SD UI - 76s almost never does.

Even when you do have a sc and you do flop an OESD or a gs+fd or a fd most of the time that draw is going to miss. Vs solid opponents draws are hugely unprofitable OOP so we can't play them and should be folding our sc hands preflop - Once in a while it's a great idea to take a hand you were going to throw away anyway and try to make something of it by bluffing with it - if you make this play with a hand that you would have played anyway you are harming your winrate.

Whenever you 3bet light your running the risk that villain will 4bet you all-in (or 4bet you enough to pretty much totally commit you to going all in on a later street) if villain 4bets here we have to throw 77 in the muck - thats BAD cos it means villain probably had AK/QQ+ and if we had flat called AND flopped a set we would have stacked the villain and instead of booking a 12bb loss we could have booked a 100bb win. That is why I think 3betting here is horrible. Yes most of the time he is opening lesser hands and won't even call preflop but I'd much rather make a bluff out of a hand that I was mucking unless I play it like this than a hand that has very good implied odds etc etc vs his opening range.

[NeverScurred]

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I'd much rather make a bluff out of a hand that I was mucking unless I play it like this than a hand that has very good implied odds etc etc vs his opening range.

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The point is that against players with wide opening ranges, you actually don't have very good implied odds because they won't have a hand good enough to stack off every time you flop a set. As villain's opening range gets wider and wider, a 3-bet becomes more and more preferable to a flat. Against villians with tight ranges, a 3-bet is bad because they will fold less often, and a flat is good because they'll have better hands on average, giving you better implied odds to setmine. Against villains with loose opening ranges, a 3-bet becomes better because they'll fold to it more often, and a call becomes worse because they won't stack off to your set as often. There are certain villains who open wide ranges and don't suck postflop who I'd rather fold against here than flat. However, the majority microstakes is not this kind of player, which is why a flat is best against an unknown.


By the way Matrix, I'd just like to say that you've made some good points and I think this is a really good discussion. I get more out of things like this than just straight hand critiques, so thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[manbearpig]

I thought of 3 betting preflop but if I miss with a couple over cards I am in a bad spot OOP. A lot of check folds result.

The only way I was not going to get stacked was to bet/fold the turn. But how can you bet fold there? Lead for 7 or so, pot is $17ish. He would have raised AI making the effective pot $36 that I would need to call $12 into. Must call right? Ahead some plus draw to boat.

[matrix]

OP you are supposed to get stacked here - not going broke on this turn is bad play - getting all your chips in on this turn with a set and redraw to a boat is just totally standard. You played this hand well and got unlucky. Definitely not spew.

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The point is that against players with wide opening ranges, you actually don't have very good implied odds because they won't have a hand good enough to stack off every time you flop a set.

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they don't need to stack off - on average we need to net 12xpreflop call = 36bb in this hand - pot is 7bb on teh flop - if you raise his flop CB (say he lead out 5bb and we re-raised to 20bb and he calls - now we've net 20bb and only need 16 more...)

If villains keep folding to your flop raises - then raise their flop bets a lot more often....


Basically we agree that v an unknown flatting is standard - you need a solid read to either 3bet preflop or fold preflop either of which can be a good play under the right circumstances - and I enjoy good discussion as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MEC2210]

Depending on the villian, I 3bet often w/ small pocket pairs, and it's surely profitable...as stated before if they call with a higher pair or AK (assuming they don't come over) you're most likely getting a stack the times you flop a set...and you're turning a hand that you fold 7 out of 8 times into a hand that's winning you some small pots after you c-bet. However, obv flatcalling is standard, and here there's really no way to avoid it. There's no way 97% of players are folding this. You're not saving yourself any hurting by shoving PF - most of the time with a set (unless on a very, very drawy board) you'll lose a lot of value by shoving on the flop after getting raised, as you might as well type "set" in the chat box. Even most overpairs will fold to you there unless they think you're on a draw.... so yeah, IMO - no way to avoid this. Reload and play it the exact same way the next time and you'll find yourself on the winning end.

I saw someone wrote that your CR was horrible on the turn - I definitely don't agree. You've got one more card coming and there are a lot of two pairs and over-excited overpairs you're dominating here.