Understanding "Small Pot" and "Value Bet" conflict

TJD · #1 07-12-2006, 04:51 AM

Hi all,

I am new to NL but have won consistently at limit.

I am sure it is obvious to you experienced guys but I see a potential conflict with the 2 concepts above. I'd really appreciate it if you would help me understand better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I can see the logic of "small hand/small pot" but more than once on this forum the idea of "Value betting to death" has been suggested as being the key to a good win rate.

Is the "potential" conflict nothing more than picking our spots?

For example, versus a tricky solid player, we know that continuing to pound is only going to induce a fold or cost us a lot of chips if behind (small pot concept employed). However, against the guy who called 3 big post flop bets from me yesterday with TPPK when I had a set, I should be looking to play the same way with TP only?

Equally, against a solid player who checks the river OOP, I can probably assume that he either has nothing of real worth and has decided to give up or he has a medium strength hand with which he intends to call hoping he has induced a bluff. Against him, "value betting" a moderate hand will not be +EV but against the loosie who will call with 4th pair a bet has value.

Is this it or have I missed some important point(s) about when to inflate the pot rather than keep it small with a moderate hand?

Thanks all.

Trevor

younghov17 · #2 07-12-2006, 04:54 AM

unfortunatly it isnt as easy as if/else, it depends on the board, your opponent, and your image. best i can do is look over some hands for you as every situation is different.

MyTurn2Raise · #3 07-12-2006, 05:00 AM

I think this ties into what Ed Miller stresses in repeating that no-limit is a very fluid game. Many concepts are in play and some counteract each other from time to time. You are right, it comes down to weighing which factor best fits the situation at hand.

MyTurn2Raise · #4 07-12-2006, 05:11 AM

words of advice that came to me one night:

If you have to ask if you want the pot to be big, you don't want a big pot.

Nearly all of the value bet decisions should be coming in small pots; it is only the difference in a larger small pot or a tiny small pot.

bobdibble · #5 07-12-2006, 06:18 AM

I have a problem with this too. Say you have a big overpair, or a big TPTK, or a weak two pair, the board is full of draws and there are a lot of people in the pot... In order to protect your hand, you need to be making big bets.. i.e. somewhere between half and full pot. However, by the time the turn gets there, the pot has become huge due to all the players. e.g. you make a 4BB pf raise, you get called in 5 places.. pot is now 24BB, you bet 15BB on the flop, and get 3 callers, pot is now 84BB going into the turn and (assuming you started with 100BB) now have a massive pot with medium hand by NL standards.. This seems to be a recpie for getting stacked by a set.

younghov17 · #6 07-12-2006, 06:25 AM

in no limit sometimes u must risk giving free cards in order to control the pot.

Jouster777 · #7 07-12-2006, 06:41 AM

Maybe this hand has some relevant points that I have questions on too. I had been raising a fair bit prior to this and getting folds to cbets so I wasn't surprised to get some playback and expected villain to have a Q, maybe a good 8 or better. When the board paired I am even more WA/WB so I tried to keep the pot size reasonable by just calling the turn despite the FD out there (I didn't think he would be the FD twice). I think I am still ahead of villain's range here and I probably missed a river value bet when he bets small however if he pushes I probably need to call. Questions - Call on turn ok? Need to value bet the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($63.73)
Hero ($63.04)
MP ($30.55)
Button ($52.30)
SB ($19.27)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.5, BB raises to $7, Hero calls $3.50.

Turn: ($18.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

River: ($34.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Final Pot: $50.25

bobdibble · #8 07-12-2006, 07:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in no limit sometimes u must risk giving free cards in order to control the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

By free, do you really mean 0 or do you mean small bets that won't sufficiently protect your hand, but are still better than offering infinite odds?

The little green book and the new miller/sklansky nl book are in the mail.. hopefully they can help me sort this out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

AJGibson · #9 07-12-2006, 07:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]

The little green book and the new miller/sklansky nl book are in the mail.. hopefully they can help me sort this out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd recommend getting Harrington on hold'em as well, it's geared towards tournament play, but there's a lot you apply to ring strategy.

Jamougha · #10 07-12-2006, 07:30 AM

Pot control is really important, when you're playing deep stacked 10-20.