Freeroll Strategy Question

[Rookcifer]

I play in a lot of freerolls as I am a relatively new player. The problem I have is that typically on the first hand 6-8 people on the table will go all-in, playing the lottery. This happens on many tables, so after the first hand you have 50-100 people sitting at 10,000 chips while most others are at 1,500. These leaders then continue calling all-ins and end up with 20,000+ chips after a few hands. Not only that but you have people continually going all in almost every hand, so whenever I limp I lose my chips because of an all-in raise and if I cold call a normal raise, someone typically goes all-in behind me, so I have to fold.

What can be done to beat these lotto players? I have learned that normal tight-agressive play just simply doesn't work. When I play, I typically play 25-30% of my hands, and this simply is not enough to hang in there. I am just not involved in enough pots, so even though I may increase to 3,000 chips or so after a few pots, all the leaders are at 30-40,000. As the blinds go up, I just don't have enough chips to work with since I have been playing like a decent player should play. Correct play just doesn't seem to work against the maniacs. Those idiots who got lucky and won huge pots just have too large a chip lead to compete with.

In response to this I have found myself just going all in at the start and hoping to accumulate 9-10,000 chips on the first hand, and then sitting on it. That's all I know to do.

[fabadam]

I'm assuming these are (large) multi-table freerolls, not 1-table.

I've played only a few of such freerolls, but I can see 2 tactics:
(1) Enter the initial lottery and hope to quadruple up quickly or, oh well, there's always another freeroll.
(2) Just wait for much better hands than 25% of hands, more like top 10% (99-AA, AK, for example) and then get it in quickly, hoping to double up with the best of it.

It's always going to be a crapshoot, and you have to play a long time to win tiny amounts.
For building a bankroll from scratch, I think the nano-stakes cash games are quicker.

[mb6tour]

hi man,

I'm playing lots of freerolls now too, because both my bankroll got busted and I'm enjoying play MTTs to learn more about it.
I'm getting into top50 most of the times (about 70% I guess, on PP) just making straight-forward movements.
The one thing u should keep in mind when playing freerolls is that there are much more callingstations. that means that u should look to take the more value out of ur legitimate hands.
about allin preflops its pretty much what the guy above said + u can take advantage of somethings. remember that those who survive the lottery stages and end up with 20k+ in the 4th or 5th levels are not usually good players, so take advantage of it: they have a lot of chips and are willing to give u.
the other most important thing to keep imo is that those lottery boomers RARELY win/get remarkable payouts... don't be worried if u pop-up tournament lobby and the leader have 20 times ur stack, just keep playing the well-known ABC straight-forward, looking for good spots and the rest should take care of itself.

hope that helps

[sk8ram]

You need to play a solid ABC style of poker but remind yourself that bluffs aren't going to work, and that you can normally value bet a lot lighter.

Free rolls are horrible though, and I've only ever played about two back in the day.

[pzhon]

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I play in a lot of freerolls as I am a relatively new player.


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That's good idea for a while. It is cheap practice.

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The problem I have is that typically on the first hand 6-8 people on the table will go all-in, playing the lottery. This happens on many tables, so after the first hand you have 50-100 people sitting at 10,000 chips while most others are at 1,500. These leaders then continue calling all-ins and end up with 20,000+ chips after a few hands.


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That shouldn't be a problem. Chips beyond your stack are chips that can't hurt you, at least, not directly. Players with big stacks dont fold as much, so don't bluff. Bet for value.

You not only don't have to try to keep up with the big stacks, you also don't have to try to keep up with the average stack, which rises as people get knocked out. Many players feel pressured into making moves with substandard cards just because they have a below-average stack, but this is wrong. If you have tripled your intial stack, you have about three times your initial equity whether your opponents average the same amount, half as much, or twice as much.

Make plays you expect will gain chips. Don't spend chips to try to keep up with someone else.

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Not only that but you have people continually going all in almost every hand, so whenever I limp I lose my chips because of an all-in raise and if I cold call a normal raise, someone typically goes all-in behind me, so I have to fold.

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Adjust by not limping with hands you will fold to a push, and by lowering your calling standards for pushes. While a tight, passive player's raise needs to be respected, a maniac's push should not be. It would be suicidal to call a tight player's push with AJ when the blinds are tiny in comparison with the stacks, but it's a fine hand to take to battle against a maniac. Sometimes you'll run into AK or QQ (and sometimes you'll win when you do), but most of the time you will find weak hands, since they push far too much.

It's bad poker, but you should also push when you have a premium hand, even if it is a huge overbet. You will be called by weak hands, and this gets more money in than making a normal raise. It's also worth trying in cash games up to NL $25 or so; I pushed UTG with AA for a full buy-in, and someone who wasn't even in the blinds called with T4.

Pay attention to which players are sitting out. Steal their blinds with any two cards.

If you play well, you should have no trouble winning 0.5%, 1%, or even 2% of 1000 player freerolls. If losing 98% of the time doesn't sound good, you may be setting your expectations too high.

I never won any real money in a poker freeroll, but I did win two 1000 player freerolls in a row on UltimateBet. Unfortunately, they awarded bonus dollars, and I have plenty of those I'm not going to clear, but it was fun.

[Rookcifer]

Thanks for the help and for taking the time to respond.

So the general advice should be to tighten up play and not limp with hands that I wouldn't cold call a raise with?

Typically when I get the premium big pair hands, I push all in because I know my EV is positive when facing a table full of maniacs. This pushed out the "normal" players and tempts the idiots to call with Q-9.

I find myself seeing 30% of flops. Is this too much (disregarding the maniacs, I am talking under normal circumstances)?

[riverruss]

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I find myself seeing 30% of flops.

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Thats loose,if you want to play a tightish game you should be looking at somewhere around 15-18%(excluding the BB)& be raising at least 50% of those hands,

[bearwiredpair]

Freeroll Strategy, isnt that an oxymoron?

I have no life and and almost as much cash so I play about 15 to 20 of theses a day. I belong to a site that has 2 a day with each having a 200.00 prize pool and I spend my mornings drinking coffee and playing Full Tilt PADs and Aussie Millions. In the evenings I will attemp one of the many insanely large freerolls on Poker Stars.

The 200.00 freelrolls that I play are all private for the members of the site so the play is a bit better but 80% of the players there believe a suited K9 is a good starting hand. The game is usally NLHE but they mix it up now and then and thats when I have won my money, they are clueless when it comes to other games. If you want info on the site PM me. They are good people but its alot like high school with all the drama.

Back to strategy...
First thing you want to do is get every good luck charm you have in the house and place them around your PC to get the mojo flowing. Its about 90% luck until you hit the last 2 or 3 tables.

Saying that playing TAG is frustrating is an understatement but its safe. You want to stay away from the multi-way lotto hands. You want to get involved in pots with one or two players that have monster stacks. This will happen often. You will find yourself in the SB or BB, maybe on the button or late position and a big stack goes all in and the rest will fold. You want to change your range of starting hands drastically. Stick with the usual monsters but I find that just about any pocket pair are gold when in this situation. High suited and connectors are good here too but stay away from low end straight and flush draws. If you can hit a couple of these early you are good to go.

You want to live fast or die young in the early stages of freerolls. It is a pisser when you struggle for an hour and get your aces or kings beat by a 74 off. Dont waste your time there are plenty out there just move on to the next.

Once you have a nice little stack (3k or 4k) you can start targeting small stacks. Pick the ones that will not crush you if you lose and make them go all in. Watch the players behind you, make sure a big stack aint looking at your chips.

Usally after the first break you can start playing poker. If you start making some good moves and playing some good poker the big stacks may show some respect.

Watch out for those who have large stacks and just realized that its going to be another couple of hours before this thing is over and want to dump their chips. They will say "I gotta go I have 82off call me". It is very tempting to call them with pocket 10s but 4 out of 5 times they hit and suck out. Just be careful.

With the info from the other poster you have a decent stategy to get things going.

Good luck

[Rookcifer]

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I find myself seeing 30% of flops.

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Thats loose,if you want to play a tightish game you should be looking at somewhere around 15-18%(excluding the BB)& be raising at least 50% of those hands,

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When I say 30-35% this is including the SB and BB. So, from other positions, it is probably low 20's. Compared to the players in the freerolls I am a rock.

[Rookcifer]

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Freeroll Strategy, isnt that an oxymoron?

I have no life and and almost as much cash so I play about 15 to 20 of theses a day. I belong to a site that has 2 a day with each having a 200.00 prize pool and I spend my mornings drinking coffee and playing Full Tilt PADs and Aussie Millions. In the evenings I will attemp one of the many insanely large freerolls on Poker Stars.

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I play in the $200 Poker Stars freerolls when I get a chance. It seems to me that the players in those play better than the players in the massive 10,000 player freerolls. I suppose this is because there is money awarded to the final table and in the 10,000 player tourneys you have to move to another round first. I suppose this fact makes a lot of people impatient in the multi-round satellite freeroll tourneys.

That said, I have been playing poker for a month and I have placed in the top 200 (out of 10,000) a few times. I have Sklansky and Yao's books to thank for improving the disaster I was the first week or two. I'm not that good now, but I feel I am better than 85% of the maniacs in those freerolls (which means there are a plethora of crappy players out there). My Donkey test IQ is 94, which is low-average.

I also play a lot of play money multi-table SNG's just for "practice" and I make the final table probably 90% of the time. I win around 10% of the time. Heads-up is something I have hardly any clue about. I find myself too impatient and I probably move-in too often.

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The 200.00 freelrolls that I play are all private for the members of the site so the play is a bit better but 80% of the players there believe a suited K9 is a good starting hand. The game is usally NLHE but they mix it up now and then and thats when I have won my money, they are clueless when it comes to other games. If you want info on the site PM me. They are good people but its alot like high school with all the drama.

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What do you mean by "private?" Is this on Stars or FTP or some other site?

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Back to strategy...
First thing you want to do is get every good luck charm you have in the house and place them around your PC to get the mojo flowing. Its about 90% luck until you hit the last 2 or 3 tables.

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LOL I have my rabbit's foot ready.

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Saying that playing TAG is frustrating is an understatement but its safe.

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Donkey alert: I am not sure what TAG means. --blushes--

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You want to stay away from the multi-way lotto hands. You want to get involved in pots with one or two players that have monster stacks.

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Yeah I typically find myself gaining all my chips in one or two hands. I play few hands (relative to everyone else) and I often end up with a larger stack than those who limp every hand (even if they have the luck).

So you think monster stacks are better to go against? Is this because they feel they have better pot odds to call? Or that they just wont miss the chips if they lose?

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This will happen often. You will find yourself in the SB or BB, maybe on the button or late position and a big stack goes all in and the rest will fold. You want to change your range of starting hands drastically. Stick with the usual monsters but I find that just about any pocket pair are gold when in this situation. High suited and connectors are good here too but stay away from low end straight and flush draws.

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Yeah, any pair above 10 I am calling anyone (unless there are several callers in front of me). With Queens or better I will call no matter how many callers are in front of me. I think this is +EV in these games (though probably would not be in a real money buy-in tourney). When I find that the table is decently tight, I will not call all-ins if there is more than one caller in front of me. The only exception is if I have pocket aces. On a tight table if there are multi-callers I fold Jacks and Queens.

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You want to live fast or die young in the early stages of freerolls.

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Yeah I have found this to be true. Even though, like the previous poster said, it might not be smart to watch and see who is in chip lead or even watch to see if your stack is average, but I find it hard to sit around and wait for monsters when all the maniacs have accrued huge stacks. It makes it tougher on me as the blinds get bigger. I have a hard time not watching the chip leader's stack size and keeping up with the average stack. I do find myself, like the other poster said, getting impatient and moving in with marginal hands when my stack is below average. However, i feel it is a trade-off. Either take a risk and move in with K-10 or A-9 or wait for a monster, which may not come until it is too late.

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Once you have a nice little stack (3k or 4k) you can start targeting small stacks. Pick the ones that will not crush you if you lose and make them go all in. Watch the players behind you, make sure a big stack aint looking at your chips.

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Yeah I have learned that bullying pays off. I have gotten a little more efficient at it recently.

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Usally after the first break you can start playing poker. If you start making some good moves and playing some good poker the big stacks may show some respect.

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This might not work against good players, but I find myself sometimes showing my cards if I make a big bet and get the person to fold. But I only show if I have the nuts. This seems to allow me to be able to pull off bluffs later (which are essential as the blinds go up). Since I play like a rock and (sometimes) show the nuts, I have found that I get away with my bluffs a very large percentage of the time.

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Watch out for those who have large stacks and just realized that its going to be another couple of hours before this thing is over and want to dump their chips. They will say "I gotta go I have 82off call me".

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LOL, Like a donk, I called someone one day when he pulled this "I have to go" stunt. I called with maybe a Q-10 or so. Of course he had pocket Aces. I later pulled the stunt myself and had a few callers against my aces. I won. I have learned not to believe anything people say about their cards.

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With the info from the other poster you have a decent stategy to get things going.

Good luck

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Thanks a million, dude! I appreciate your time in writing a response.