Call down or raise it up?

jr4284 · #1 10-01-2007, 07:17 PM

SB loves to fire if he thinks he can take down the pot. Not a very good player, but has some tricky agressive moves.

Now, I'm pretty sure that we're ahead on this turn, but should we raise it up to knock out UTG, or call it down and gain the extra bet from SB on the river?

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ????

jstill · #2 10-01-2007, 07:26 PM

ehh.... id call fold if either player call the turn behind u and he still bets... HU i duno hed have to be quite a maniac for me to want to/ feel compelled to call 3 streets here but if we went to the river HU and a fd was off the flop I think id have to call certain maniacs lags

AnimalMidnight · #3 10-01-2007, 11:39 PM

I think a raise is right even without your read that SB has air a lot here. The pot's 6BB on your turn action, so doing what you can to win it seems more important than trying to get 1BB in bluffchips from SB.

Raising stops UTG from playing correctly & drawing for 1BB when he's behind. When you just call the turn after your preflop BB raise & flop bet, your hand is AK/AQ/AJ/KQ pretty much all the time. If he agrees with your read that SB usually won't have a FH when he donks the turn, then he can call with everything he's gotten this far with that's behind (clubs, straight draw, unpaired broadway cards which now have no domination issues) getting 7-1.

A raise from you will also often make UTG fold a hand better than yours (A4s/22/55/66 - maybe 77-99) as your play on all streets to this point says you have AA-TT, maybe down to 88. If one of these hands folds and SB is currently unpaired that's massive for you.

Back to SB. If he has air then not raising gives him the option of making that his last bet in the pot if he misses, but getting a bet off you on the river if he hits.

If he has a straight or flush draw, you can make him incorrectly fold it (or at least pay more for it). And if he does have a 4 or a small PP, he can't do anything but call down after you raise him, so you can check through a missed river.

After raising the turn, if UTG calls or 3bets, I'm seeing a river (for 1BB - folding if capped back to me) and folding unimproved. If UTG folds and SB 3bets, I'm seeing a river. Calling the river unimproved (12-1) would depend if I'd seen him continue bluffing into an 'obviously' showdown bound player before.

inferno · #4 10-02-2007, 03:29 AM

just call it you will hate it if he 3bets here, why be tricky against the tricksters

jessie · #5 10-02-2007, 09:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB loves to fire if he thinks he can take down the pot. Not a very good player, but has some tricky agressive moves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is SB tricky enough to 3 bet turn if he thinks he can take the pot down?

If he has a made hand (3 or 4 or pp), calling the flop then leading that turn seems really stupid. The turn only strengthened his hand and he seems to be nicely set up for a c/r - something a player with tricky aggressive moves would try.

I think it's more likely he has some type of draw (or air) and is just taking a shot. I would raise turn and try to force out UTG, since he's likely drawing to OCs/flush.

mvoss · #6 10-02-2007, 09:30 AM

He likes to fire away with air, I say let him.