So who in here wants the US to fail in Iraq?

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
Who in here ... wants Bush's plan to fail or doesn't know?

[/ QUOTE ]You need to tell us first what the f*cking plan is.

Be careful now.

[SNOWBALL]

1. I wish the invasion never happened.
2. Given that it did happen, I wish the US failed to conquer Iraq.
3. Given that the US succeeded in conquering Iraq, I wish we never occupied Iraq afterwards.
4. Given that we are occupying Iraq, I want that to fail.

What's so hard to understand? The US is waving it's imperial porksword around the world, and I don't like it. Not one bit.

[andyfox]

If:

-He felt the WMD accusations were trumped up.

-He felt the U.S. was just looking for an excuse to invade Iraq and used 9/11 as pretext.

-He felt the U.S. ignored evidence that the occupation would be difficult and ugly and just didn't care enough about it's soldiers or the people of Iraq to take care to plan intelligently.

-He felt that the U.S. government constantly and consistently misled it's people and the world about how poorly things were going in Iraq.

-He took the President at his word when he said he didn't consider casualties when planning the invasion.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/...oxnewspoll.pdf

19. Do you personally want the Iraq plan President Bush announced last week to succeed?

Yes No (Don’t know)

16-17 Jan 07 63% 22 15

Democrats 51% 34 15

Republicans 79% 11 10

Independents 63% 19 17


So who in here is part of the 37% of the population that wants Bush's plan to fail or doesn't know?

If you are part of that 37%, what is your reasoning? You may hate Bush or the US government in general, but do you really think we will all be better off if we fail in Iraq? Or would you just get pleasure in seeing Bush fail regardless of how many lives are ruined in the process?

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, the USA will fail in Iraq regardless of what any of us wish for. The poll is therefore asking respondents' feelings about a moot point.

What do I mean by that, and how can we know this to be true?

Well, the USA might temporarily enforce more "peace" in Iraq than has been present during the last few years, by putting the hammer (or "Surge") into play for a while. What happens after the USA leaves, though (whenever that might be)? Answer: the old strifes will resurface and dominate the political landscape in Iraq as before. The Shi'ites will send death-squads against the Sunnis - as before the USA left. Iran will become even less circumspect about trying to influence affairs in Iraq.

The country will not become a democracy with civil rights protected as we in the West understand democracy to be. The USA will ultimately fail in trying to implement the Neo-Con grand dream.

A large percentage of Iraqis would like to see Shari'a imposed. Shari'a is antithetical to Western-style civil rights and Western-style democracy.

This Neo-Con attempt, this naive foolhardiness, to try to forcibly spead democracy in Iraq is simply a lost cause. Why? Because America will not convince the huge slice of Iraqis to abandon their widespread desire for Shari'a, and because America will not alleviate the ancient mutual hatred of the Shi'ites versus the Sunnis (let's leave the Kurd-related difficulties out of the discussion for simplicity).

When America leaves or can no longer afford the 12 billion dollars or so it cost each month to maintain order (if some semblance of order can even be maintained), Iraq will revert to the problems of sectarian loyalties and sectarian violence and the desire to dominate the other sect.

Iraq may also fall under Shari'a law, after the Shi'ites dominate the Sunnis (with Iran's help). An Iraq under Shari'a law could be as bad for human rights as Iraq under Saddam, and would certainly be worse for the West than was Iraq under Saddam.

So whether one wishes for the USA to succeed or fail in Iraq is esentially meaningless. Failure is assured eventually. Iraq will not become a genuine democracy with constitutionally protected rights like the West. The Neo-Con architects are naive about the Middle East and hubris-filled. The average-Joe-politically-interested citizens who are "hopefuls" that the USA will succeed are not sufficiently knowledgeable of several Middle Eastern forces, all of which forces are far stronger than forces in the Middle East which incline towards freedom, democracy or civil rights. Those Middle-Eastern forces which are so antagonistic to Western ideals, and so much stronger, are: 1) Sectarianism/tribalism and centuries of fighting along those lines, 2) a background of Islam/Shari'a, 3) to a lesser extent, a cultural viewpoint which is geared more towards domination/submission rather than towards mutual cooperation towards an end.

Any democracy achieved in Iraq will eventually be utilized for the domination of the majority over the minority.

The USA cannot succeed in Iraq; it can only put a larger bandage on the wound and hold it in place for a while to staunch the flow of bleeding. A temporary "surge" resulting in a mere temporary cooling of violence cannot be considered success, nor can a new government which only temporarily "supports" human/civil rights.

Wishing that the USA will succeed in Iraq (or in the Middle East) is like wishing Don Quixote "Godspeed!" in his battles with windmills.

[tehox]

I think its important to note that 21% of Repulicans say that don't want it to succed or don't know.

To kind of answer what you're getting at is that I think the existence of a signifcant wing of the Democratic Party that "hates America" or "wants the terrorists to win" is a myth. It has been something that has been pushed very hard by Bush and Co. to marginalize those that disagree with their policies. And I do spend time at DailyKos for example and I encourage others to do the same (I spend time on both conservative and liberal blogs), and you will be hard pressed to find those that truly hope for failure.

I would probably agree with Iron on this one. Also,I think that there is a tremendous amount of anger and skepticism over Bush's handling of the war, and this might play into an answer someone might give if questioned if how they feel about Bush's "plans" for Iraq.

But I'll let you in on a little secret, noone wants the terrorists to win, nooone wants American soldiers to die, noone hates America, etc..

[boracay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DEFINE SUCCESS

[/ QUOTE ]

After every terrorist, I mean person in Iraq surrenders.

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming that large majority of sunnis/shiites would vote for US army leaving there might be a problem. the other problem is that those percents are getting higher all the time.
not to mention they believe they are fighting for freedom against their agressor - i'd doubt any military force can challenge fight for freedom. and that's not all - add a religious factor to their believe in fight for freedom.
0% chances for success you have mentioned IMO.

[lozen]

I hate Bush. But why would I want one more soldier to die. Question should be Do you like the plan? Do you think it will fail? Such a bad Poll question to ask?

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate Bush. But why would I want one more soldier to die. Question should be Do you like the plan? Do you think it will fail? Such a bad Poll question to ask?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple. FoxNews poll. They did ask if people thought it would work, etc, but they had to have something to bash the Democrats with. Hence the "do you want it to fail" and "do the Dems want it to fail" questions.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/...oxnewspoll.pdf

19. Do you personally want the Iraq plan President Bush announced last week to succeed?

Yes No (Don’t know)

16-17 Jan 07 63% 22 15

Democrats 51% 34 15

Republicans 79% 11 10

Independents 63% 19 17


So who in here is part of the 37% of the population that wants Bush's plan to fail or doesn't know?

If you are part of that 37%, what is your reasoning? You may hate Bush or the US government in general, but do you really think we will all be better off if we fail in Iraq? Or would you just get pleasure in seeing Bush fail regardless of how many lives are ruined in the process?

[/ QUOTE ]

the poll needs to include what "succeed" means.
I'm sure most Reps are concluding it means to somewhat stabilize Iraq long enough for Bush to bail and force the next pres(Dem) to have to deal with it.

[Jamougha]

[ QUOTE ]

the poll needs to include what "succeed" means.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that omission is really down to Bush.