What line to take in what spot?

[gergery]

I'm interested in others views on when you should come alive and start raising in a hand. For example:

Higher stakes game fullring Limit O8, opponents are not terrible not great but are fairly aggressive. You open limp in with a somewhat speculative hand in MP. Button raises, only BB and you call. You catch a strong likely best but not monster hand on flop, and know Button will cbet and BB will likely call. My questions are:

How do you decide between different lines to take:
- lead/3bet flop
- c/r flop lead turn
- flat call flop, c-r turn
etc.

In other words, while all are something you consider, what MOST influences your decision:
- Flop texture
- aggressiveness of opponent
- villain range
- hand they put you on
- how multiway/drawy your hand is
etc.

If it helps to make this concrete, lets say your hand is
1) 245Qds and flop is 34Q with two of your suit to the 5
2) A489s and flop is A89 twoflush in suit you don't have

sorry if this is vague, I'm trying to understand different thought processes on when to start jamming

-g

[chaos]

Both of those hands are mediocre at best. They need two perfect cards to make the nut low. Although the second hand has a nut flush possibility the 89 are bad cards.

I wouldn't play them preflop.

If there is much action I wouldn't be playing them on those flops either.

- chaos

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't play them preflop.

If there is much action I wouldn't be playing them on those flops either.
- chaos

[/ QUOTE ]

i think they're worth playing 3-handed in raised pots vs. agro players, but thats not so relevant

So, can you describe a medium strong hand/flop situation what what you're thinking about in terms of the line you take?

[Split Suit]

this thought could b because i havnt played much O8 in the last few months...but if OTB is aggro...when not bet/call the flop? being an aggro will most likely raise either of those boards, they shud actually knock out the BB for us, allowing us to play a HU pot.

we can proceed from there...

just my thought. i will also note that LO8 is not my best game...so i am also interested in how ppl adjust here

[Fiasco]

Before I get into this, Ill also say that I probably dont limp either of those hands in MP, but thats not so relevant to the discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, while all are something you consider, what MOST influences your decision:
- Flop texture
- aggressiveness of opponent
- villain range
- hand they put you on
- how multiway/drawy your hand is
etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cetainly dont worry about what they put me on. LO8 is full of first level thinking, even from some of the better players. Putting people on hands is often very difficult, much harder than LHE, NLHE or even PLO8. I think the second least important when making this decision is opponents range (that is, as far as deciding on a line on the flop, it may help me when re-evaluating later in the hand)

the next least important is flop texture. I tend to be more concerned about this in multiway pots. Shorthanded to the flop im not so worried about my craise attempt getting checked through (both because opponent is likely to bet and because there will be less draws out to beat me).

How multiway/drawy my hand is seems like a very important consideration in evaluating the play of this hand, but I think it takes a backseat to how aggressive (and how loose or tight) my opponent is.

I suppose that the more hes willing to lay a hand down, the more im willing to make an aggressive move with a drawy hand. If hes going to showdown every time then I think I have to take that into consideration with the nature of my hand.

So yeah, those two factors seem to be the important ones. And I just pulled this out of my ass and it may be worthless. Ill try a more considered response later.

[Mendacious]

I haven't played that much limit lately, but neither one of those hands is one that I would like to play for a big pot on the flop. I take it for granted that you will not chase people on flops like these in Limit. So, I take the conservative lines on the flop and decide how to proceed on the turn when the bets are bigger and you stand to gain more in value and have a better chance of getting a fold.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
If it helps to make this concrete,....

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Greg - Yes. What to do is very difficult to answer generally. It's also difficult to assign weight to the various factors you mention. It's very much on a case by case basis with me. I'm also very interested in the points of view of others on this issue.
[ QUOTE ]
....lets say your hand is
1) 245Qds and flop is 34Q with two of your suit to the 5

[/ QUOTE ]You have some outs here: 4 aces, 3 sixes, 2 fours and 2 queens, but except for 3 of the aces, all probably for half the pot. You have flopped two pairs, but they probably won't hold up. I don't think it's worth trying to protect them. My attitude would be, "As cheaply as possible, let's see what happens on the turn." And yet I still would like one bet going into the pot. If BB checked, I probably would bet, but if BB bet, I almost surely would merely call.

The baby flush draw is an enigma; with only two opponents, I'm probably going to be fatalistically stuck in the hand if I make the flush, unless I can foresee that I'm going to get whip-sawed if I hang in there.
Depending on the individuals involved, I'm not generally willing to take the heat with a baby flush and a non-nut low if my opponents decide to jam. The trick is have a table image such that you avoid having your opponents putting moves on you, but sometimes that's impossible.
[ QUOTE ]
lets say your hand is
2) A489s and flop is A89 twoflush in suit you don't have

[/ QUOTE ]I think of this hand/flop as a 6 out draw for a full house/quads, and probably for only half the pot. However, this time the flopped two pairs is more likely to stand up but also can use protection. Accordingly, this time I would take a more aggressive stance, probably betting if BB checks and probably raising if BB bets. Again, let's see what happens on the turn but this time I'll play so that it's more likely to be heads-up after the second betting round. This is a pushing situation.

Buzz

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]


If it helps to make this concrete, lets say your hand is
1) 245Qds and flop is 34Q with two of your suit to the 5
2) A489s and flop is A89 twoflush in suit you don't have


-g

[/ QUOTE ]

In the first example, Q245, on a Q43 board, I'm going to lead/3-bet most times and check raise others. I'll never check/call that board with that hand. In a spot like this I'll usually consider what hands beat me both ways, and consider what part of Villains probable range those hands consist of, which, invariably, means I bet/raise/cap that flop, b/c it's very hard to be in bad shape against a standard opening hand, and I can get a lot of info on villains hand in that spot as well.

In the second example, you've got a drawing hand. A89x on A89 board. I will lead this flop and call a raise, but i'm not going to check raise or 3-bet this hand on this board- unless it's multiway and no flush draw exists, but that's still a very small % of the time. Reason being, any card that doesn't make you a full house [censored] up your hand. Any 2,3,4,5,6,7 makes for a low or low and straight, and any 10,J,Q,K makes a straight or a better aces up. I'll lead that flop because I don't want it getting checked through, and often times I'll get called in more than one spot which improves the price the pot is laying me.

That help?


-Tex

[gergery]

Excellent, thanks