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  #21  
Old 11-19-2007, 12:13 PM
LukeSLTS LukeSLTS is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

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Big B/R nit. I feel like I have to be because I have tilt problems. I throw stuff against the wall when I'm losing because I shouldn't lose because I'm better than my opponents. Lost 400bb's in my first 35k hands of 5/10. So I want 1000BB's before I move up. $14k right now - I can't wait to hit $16k so I can play 8/16 because I've played the same limit for over a year. My only withdrawl was $10k a year ago to pay for a car. I'm not sure I really have a point here.

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hah, that applies to me at moments too, i mean the throwing of things against the wall. I've moved down to 0.02/0.04 at UB, then currently at 0.05/0.10 at PS. Seems to be doing well, at least the small bet size is not affecting my playing decisions. Hope to make it up the 'class' of LHE within this year!

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I used to play 15/30 live exclusively and I made the mistake of never building up my bankroll thorugh play. I started off by giving my self a bankroll of $500 for 2/4. After only 20-30 hours of play i had accumulated about $1K. Instead of playing longer at that limit I decided to give myself an additional $2K and move up to 4/8 immediately. I saw the same terrible play here but I didn't run as hot. I played about 100 hours at this limit and then convinced myself that I could play higher even though I had only broke even over that time. This is when I began to lose touch with reality and gave myself another $5K and told myself that it was a surefire investment. I moved up to 10/20 and 15/30. It took only another 100-150 hours and I had completely used up my bankroll. After that I took a one month break and read every poker book I could. Then I gave myself another $5K and lost..... and then another $5K...... and then another $5K. In the end I had lost $21.5K over about a year and a half in addition to some deposits I had made for online play. During this time I convinced myself over and over that I was running poorly.

Anyway, I took a six month break from poker after this and decided earlier this year to give it another try but this time I would start low and only move up when I had earned an adequate bankroll to do so. I started at .10/.20 with a $100 roll and from there I have moved to .25/.50 where I am currently. I have taken a more conservative approach and vowed not to move up in limits until I have at least 1000BB. I am now taking the approach that Aaron mentioned in OP of having a bankroll only for the purpose of being able to continue to play, where as before I had the get rich quickly mindset.
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2007, 02:30 PM
britspin britspin is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

Fantastic read. Many thanks.Good to read something aimed at the casual player.

Bankroll History:

Playing online poker came when the players in my then regular home game started saying things like "I won fifty pounds playing poker last night online". This intrigued me and I wished to subcribe to their newsletter.

Because the money was only part of the issue for me, I started out small. My first (and so far only) deposit to a poker account was £35. Enough to get me $50 of chips. I played .05/.10c NL. I crushed that game. I can still remember my first $5 pot. Jacks full.

I've never felt the mad pressure to climb up limits to earn more cash money now. In fact, I've usually lagged in the shallow end for ages.

More often than move up limits I've switched from STT to MTT to FL to NL to PL to omaha to keep myself learning and interested. When I get back to the "old" game and find it easy, I might give a higher game a try.

My Maximum Bankroll was around $4k. That was playing a mix of micro NL, MTTs, 1/2FL and STTs. I didn't want to use it to step up at the time, so I cashed out about $3k to spend on a trip to South Africa. Then I got up to $2k and cashed out again to buy a computer and big TV, which took me all the way down to $700.

Right now I'm playing $10 STTs and full table $1/$2 limit with a $1.5k bankroll.

Bankroll Philosophy:

I play for enjoyment, for mental stimulation and to make some money doing the above. So building a bankroll, while Important isn't my primary motivation.

I have a bankroll to allow me to play poker, I don't play poker to build my bankroll alone. Oddly, this makes me quite conservative. I want to make sure my Bankroll isn't a worry to me, so I play within decent margins.

Second, I want to enjoy the fruits of my labour. My poker profit is the bonus I get for playing well so I use it to reward myself. I think In addition to OPs decent cashout reasons is the idea of cashing out for a specific pleasure based target. I don't want to open a savings account with poker money (though it's a good idea) but I do want to use it to visit somewhere I've never been.

To put it another way, my initial deposit was play money, so I use my winnings to fund pleasures i wouldn't justify otherwise. This retards limit climbing, but helps me stay disciplined and motivated.

I suppose the key is be aware of your motivations.
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2007, 06:02 PM
00Snitch 00Snitch is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

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Then I gave myself another $5K and lost..... and then another $5K...... and then another $5K. In the end I had lost $21.5K


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Wow. Just wow.
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2007, 06:26 PM
bravos1 bravos1 is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

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The one thing about moving up is a lot of the time you just get cold decked, sucked out on, basically endure a ton of short term variance and immediately lose say 150 bb's from the level you were just playing within 500-1k hands.

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This is not true and probably just being results oriented. Short term variance is just as likely to win you 150BBs as it is to lose it.

Most players that lose drastically when they move up, do so because they are playing poorly or too timidly because they are thinking about the money. If a player drastically changes his game (incorrectly, and usually playing too weak/tight) when he moves up, his losses are typically due to psychological issues and play, not variance.

When moving up from one level to another (single level jump 1/2->2/4 or whatever), there is seldom any reason at all to change your playing style as the play itself is not very different at all. This is not true though if you jump from a .25/.50 straight into a 5/10 game. These games will differ greatly and most people can not make that jump even if bankrolled for it and currently winning 6BB/100 at .25/.50.

One thing Aaron touched on a bit, but not directly, is that if you are playing within your roll, it doesn't matter if you play 3/6 or .5/1 around the same time. I will frequently play various levels from .5/1 - 3/6 depending on how you feel, how good the tables are, and what you are trying to accomplish. If there was some part of my game that I wanted to work on, I would often drop 1-3 levels to work on it. For instance, if I felt my post-flop play was lacking for whatever reason playing 3/6, I could easily drop to .5/1 or 1/2 and play looser to work on post flop play without feeling I was spewing too many chips. Also, If I you see a super juicy .5/1 table compared to the 1/2 game you are currently in, by all means hit it up! This of course is all relative as is your bankroll in general. The main point I am conveying here is just like Aaron's point about ego.... don't play a certain level just to satisfy your own ego, especially if it affects your overall play.

For me personally, I've always been somewhat of an online BR nit. I think this is because I just don't want to 1. go through the hassle of having to reload and 2. tilt control. We all tilt to various degrees, and even though I think mine is pretty decently controlled, it is there. My live "bankroll" on the other hand is very different. I frequently play in games that my BR really can't support. I initially started w/ a $500 "roll" playing 6/12 and 8/16 (30-40BBs LOL), and was playing 20/40 with only about $3K handy, but was not concerned. Why? Because this was not really my live BR... I could easily replenish this roll at anytime. I just happened to have $500 loose to put directly into live poker at that time. Well I've never had to put any more money into that live roll at all because I ran good early on. I've used that money for trips to vegas and other fun stuff because it was handy, but have never had to dip into that money for anything.... but if I wanted to go and play in a NL5K game or whatever, I could, and if I lost it all, well then no big deal, I'd just replenish and start anew. This is why is is all relative, and if you have no problems redepositing, then you can play as big as you feel comfortable playing w/ no bankroll concerns. As an example, Buzz was razzing Benny in the NC thread for playing under-rolled. While true, his "current online BR" prolly was not advantageous for playing an 8/16 game, if he blew a large portion of what he had online, it would not have been a devastating blow to him... also in that same weekend, he was playing a bunch of 2/4.

so...
1. when you fret over every decision at the table and are constantly thinking about the money involved and the size of pots in dollars/euros/whatever and not bets, you are probably playing "under-rolled" even if it is only under-rolled mentally.

<font color="red">Being mentally under-rolled is the worst thing a player can possess because it will 100% distort your play for the worse!</font>

2. 300BBs is just a guideline to reduce your risk of ruin. If they money does not have a big impact on your well being and how you actually play, then play whatever game you wish, even if your whole roll is on the table. Again 300BBs is just a guideline.

3. Have fun irrespective of the limit you are playing.... it is a game after all!

and oh yeah... nice post Aaron.
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:03 PM
bellatrix bellatrix is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

Aaron's post and the whole thread that is ensuing is one of the best things I have ever read about poker... and I've read a lot. Thinking about making some extra 200$, Aaron? You should send it to the 2+2 mag. Or any poker mag... amazing!
The responses have been excellent, too. Good job micros!

I don't have that much to add. I play live 4/8 - 20/40, but only micros online due to tilt issues and bad BR managment. Around the beginning of September, when I started like really posting here, I realized a good chunk of stuff that Aaron mentioned in the post. If he had written out this stuff 2 years ago and I would have read it, I would have probably saved around 3k [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Realizing that my opponents have the same BR/tilt issues is probably the #1 winning factor at limits beyond 3/6 online (not that I have been able to beat those games myself, lol). The play is quite good, but is the psychological factor?
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  #26  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:09 PM
Bona Bona is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

Bella- You copped out a little here. How do you manage your live play bankroll and/or what do you recommend?
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:25 PM
bellatrix bellatrix is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

[ QUOTE ]
Bella- You copped out a little here. How do you manage your live play bankroll and/or what do you recommend?

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My copping out is that I'm not comfortable of telling anybody what to do, when I've done so much wrong myself.

For live, I started with a 3000$ bankroll to play 3/6. I was probably way overbankrolled, but it was extra BJ money and I didn't know a thing about bankroll and probably about poker either. Err, my live bankroll now has grown to 5k. Yes, that is way underbankrolled for a 20/40 game, but well, I don't play it that often (prolly 1-2 times a month) and I enjoy it much more. I don't mind losing it all, it was extra money to begin with. But I don't advocate anybody jumping in there underbankrolled. I had a funny experience at Bay101 a few months ago. Some decent playing guy after some hours at the 20/40 (away from the table) just couldn't believe, when I told him my BR was 5k. He was like: "You play so well, yet you have so poor BR managment". After a while I responded: "Look, I'm not a pro, I don't do this for a living. If I lose this BR, I won't cry if I don't play poker again. And if it's really that important, I'll save some money from my real job and pay it off then." Cop-outs, I know... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] So, please, you'd be better off following Aaron's advice and not mine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:29 PM
OziBattler OziBattler is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

Hello BR Nits! You make me feel at home.

I made my first deposit semi-drunkern in 2004 xmas period which was a few months after I returned from 6 months in the USofA. I deposited $50 into stars using my Visa card....I only tried it on a whim and didnt really think it would go do through. It did. I donked around for a while at NL and 0/8 and lost $15 and wanted to cashout only to discover that that cashing out for an ignorant Aussie was all too hard so I left it there and used it as fun money. I managed to back up to $70 and took a shot at 25c/50c LHE. I was a total donk and lost3 months of winningsd in 100 hands and was pissed. Then by chance found 2+2 and lurked for a while whilst running up to $80 bonuses whoring UB 5c/10c tables (yes you read that correctly).

I then bonus whored (Paradise, Stars, UB and Party) all the way up to about $2000 playing 0.5/1. I probably made about $500 at the table and the rest was whored...lucky me not livin in the States.

Now, as many of you will know, Ive got 2 young kids and Im very conservative when it comes to my BR which allows me to be very aggresive at the table. I hate to lose. I also only get to play no more than 3-5K hands a month and I find that this means that I feel wins/losses more because I have more time to reflect on a previous session. Theres something to be said for getting right back in there the next day because for me that helps me get over a bad session.

So basically ive been playing overrolled and I decided that I wanted to start rewarding myself which means withdrawign excess Bankroll and buying stuff. I set my base BR at $1500 which is 750BB for my current limit of 1/2. So far Ive withdrawn somewhere in the vicinity of 2k. I really consider myself lucky to still be able to bonus whore. Bonus whoring at the lower limits can really be significant. If you non-Americans cant find decent bonuses playing 0.5/1 or 1/2 out there that can supplement your BR to the tune of AT LEAST 1-2BB/100 then you arent trying hard enough. I actually dont know how much of my total winnings is whored but it is probably well in excess of 50% (for a while I abused SSHE principles and spewed money but still managed to increase my BR with easy bonuses).

As I said, Im pretty conservative and whilst I'd love to play and beat 5/10+ I am realistic and whith a family with 2 young kids Im probably going to stick around at 1/2 and hopefully 2/4. I know Ive got the game to beat 2/4 but thats not the point. The point is that I enjoy poker and I enojoy winning and whilst Im leaving money on the table by not moving up as fast as others I really dont care that much.

All in all Ive taken $50 and turned it into thousands of dollars doing something that I enjoy (or love to hate at times)...this is as opposed to other people I know who prefer to pump money into games like Warcraft. I make a little money doing my hobby...they spend it to do theirs. hehe.
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2007, 08:07 PM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking about making some extra 200$, Aaron? You should send it to the 2+2 mag.

[/ QUOTE ]

I emailed Bryan the other day and asked him if they were interested in this type of content. I'm not sure what the response will be because this is an article that doesn't really fit the descriptions of things they are interested in. It's also too long to be a single article, so maybe it's worth $400? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, I'll probably hear back in a couple weeks whether he thinks it's good content, and if so, I could probably clean it up pretty quickly (Christmas break) and resubmit it. We'll see what happens.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2007, 10:25 PM
Gib Gib is offline
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Default Re: 8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl

Great post Aaron, imho br management is one of the most important factors to consider as a poker player.

[ QUOTE ]

What is your bankroll experience? When did you start playing poker semi-casually? How much did you start with? Where are you now? What have you done with your winnings?


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I never jumped straight into poker, I decided to research the game a bit 1st hence why my first deposit included money for both PT &amp; PAHUD, which was $300 back in Sep 05. Started off doing the bonus @ bet365's 0.25/0.50 tbls. For those that remember it this was decided after reading Homer's br post, which I followed closely 'cause Paradise $200 bonus was the next stop.

Now days after having a brief moment @ 10/20, I'm grinding out the 5/10 6max tbls. A few of the things I've spent my winnings on are; with my 1st withdrawal I placed a deposit on my home, took my GF to QLD for a holiday soon after. Since then I've bought a few toys such as surround sound, 24" monitor, upgraded my PC, etc. But I've generally tried to keep building my BR I like the comfort of being over-rolled.

[ QUOTE ]

What is your bankroll philosophy? Do you agree with me? Disagree? How do you look at your poker money?


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Ur br philosophy is similar to mine, &amp; I think ur spot on. Personally I've never been afraid to move down or up, I enjoy the challenge of moving up but I make sure there is enuff br buffer to cover me if anything goes sour. Moving down is just a part of ur experience in poker, I've felt often if I was uncomfortable @ a certain level no matter of whether I'm adequately rolled or not I would move back down. For me it's all bout my confidence in my game &amp; confidence to make money.

[ QUOTE ]

What are your struggles with your bankroll? How have you dealt with bad variance? Have you ever been close to busto? What did you do about it?


[/ QUOTE ]
I've always played with a decent sized br, tho lately a lot of that is to do with not withdrawing due to a horrible exchange lol (but it did drop 2c 2day yay!). But I do feel due to the times I play the games seem tougher during my evenings hence my br requirements generally need to be a bit higher as there can be often not a great selection of games going. Even to an extent I'm considering playing less 5/10 during weeknights (which I guess is also influenced by my current downswing!). As I mentioned having a decent br has helped me accept downswings, I'm currently experiencing a 400BB downswing @ 5/10 (which happened in 4 days of play). This is not fun but it also has helped me realise some areas of my game which I need to fix.

I've never been close to busto, in fact after in my 1st 21 months of poker I never had a losing month (/brag lol!) However I made sure my 1st losing month was worth it -$6K [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This was after I had moved up to 10/20, @ the end of the month I decided it was time to move back down to 5/10! I guess 'cause I don't withdrawal very often &amp; I don't take shots at limits too high (sometimes I take shots @ limits that I'm rolled for but haven't got the confidence to play as my main game) as well as not wanting to be below a 1000BB BR is why I haven't been close to being busto.
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