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View Poll Results: Brag, Beat, or Variance?
Brag 8 10.67%
Beat 9 12.00%
Variance 13 17.33%
BASTARD! 45 60.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 11-15-2007, 03:53 PM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

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I'd be more favorably inclined if they could guarantee these subsidies only went to small farmers. Much of the subsidies are received by large agriculture conglomerates that definitely dont need the subsidies or by people "playing farmer" in order to receive the subsidies (surprise surprise).

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These two sentences are completely contradictory. It *is* the small farmers who are only "playing farmer" in order to receive the subsidies. They cannot compete without handouts. Hence they are only playing. They should get out and go do something productive instead of wasteful.

This is like saying you think the government should give subsidies to thousands of people who build kit cars in their garages becasue they can't compete with GM, Ford, and Toyota.

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I happen to think there is a societal benefit that isnt easily quantified by keeping small, family type farms afloat. I'm pretty sure you know what I meant by people "playing farmer", but let me know if you'd like me to spell it out. The car maker analogy isnt really relevant because the individual car maker has never been a part of the American tradition and communities arent built around groups of individual car makers, whereas many communities exist in the USA that are.
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2007, 03:57 PM
Money2Burn Money2Burn is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

Yeah, my dad has complained for years because subsidies have kept farms he has to compete with in our area and around the country in business simply because they aren't as good of farmers.
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2007, 03:59 PM
VarlosZ VarlosZ is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

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b) the United States has wiped out local agriculture by dumping subsidized American agricultural surplusses as "aid".

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Example?
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  #34  
Old 11-15-2007, 04:00 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Performing miracles.
Posts: 11,182
Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be more favorably inclined if they could guarantee these subsidies only went to small farmers. Much of the subsidies are received by large agriculture conglomerates that definitely dont need the subsidies or by people "playing farmer" in order to receive the subsidies (surprise surprise).

[/ QUOTE ]

These two sentences are completely contradictory. It *is* the small farmers who are only "playing farmer" in order to receive the subsidies. They cannot compete without handouts. Hence they are only playing. They should get out and go do something productive instead of wasteful.

This is like saying you think the government should give subsidies to thousands of people who build kit cars in their garages becasue they can't compete with GM, Ford, and Toyota.

[/ QUOTE ]

I happen to think there is a societal benefit that isnt easily quantified by keeping small, family type farms afloat. I'm pretty sure you know what I meant by people "playing farmer", but let me know if you'd like me to spell it out. The car maker analogy isnt really relevant because the individual car maker has never been a part of the American tradition and communities arent built around groups of individual car makers, whereas many communities exist in the USA that are.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what you are saying, is that hundreds of millions of people should be made poorer, so that a few tens of thousands of people can continue to live in a play-pretend nostalgic fantasy of yesteryear.

I disagree.

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I happen to think there is a societal benefit that isnt easily quantified by keeping small, family type diners afloat.

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See? There are all kinds of bygone traditions that the government shouldn't spend taxpayer money preserving solely for the sake of preserving them.

Everything used to be "small, family type". Not just farming, but manufacturing as well. There is no reason to rob people to preserve the one but not the other, so the car analogy is perfectly apt.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2007, 04:01 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Performing miracles.
Posts: 11,182
Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b) the United States has wiped out local agriculture by dumping subsidized American agricultural surplusses as "aid".

[/ QUOTE ]

Example?

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http://www.newfarm.org/news/2005/0305/030205/dump.shtml
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2007, 04:04 PM
JuntMonkey JuntMonkey is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
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Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

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Widespread famines stopped happening in the 18th century because of improvements in transportation. It's almost inconceivable that such a thing could happen today.

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BUT WHAT IF BILL GATES BUYS UP ALL THE ROADS?!?!

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lol
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2007, 05:19 PM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Old Right
Posts: 7,937
Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

[ QUOTE ]
So, what you are saying, is that hundreds of millions of people should be made poorer, so that a few tens of thousands of people can continue to live in a play-pretend nostalgic fantasy of yesteryear.

I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hundreds of millions? Are you talking about taxpayers? If so, AC utopian fantasies aside, taxation isnt ending anytime soon and if we are going to subsidize farming anyhow I'd rather see a small farmer get the money.

[ QUOTE ]
See? There are all kinds of bygone traditions that the government shouldn't spend taxpayer money preserving solely for the sake of preserving them.

Everything used to be "small, family type". Not just farming, but manufacturing as well. There is no reason to rob people to preserve the one but not the other, so the car analogy is perfectly apt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure there are some traditions that shouldnt be preserved solely for the sake of preserving them. But I think that the large number of communities that revolve around farming would benefit as a whole.

You sort of missed the point on my critique of the car maker analogy. I realize everything used to be "small" in America. But there was never a culture that revolved around individual car maker.


Now, all that said, I'm not a big fan of subsidies in general and I'm well aware of the economic implications. This bill as it stands is a monstrosity and I'm not a fan. But Im much more comfortable in subsidizing on a smaller scale for the small farmer.
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2007, 05:34 PM
rwesty rwesty is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 947
Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b) the United States has wiped out local agriculture by dumping subsidized American agricultural surplusses as "aid".

[/ QUOTE ]

Example?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.newfarm.org/news/2005/0305/030205/dump.shtml

[/ QUOTE ]

“Agriculture subsidies are not driving dumping,” says Ritchie. “It is the absence of farm programs that bring production in line with supply. Without these programs, farmers will over-produce with or without subsidies, and dumping will continue.”

Isn't he saying subsidies are not what is causing dumping?
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2007, 06:02 PM
bills217 bills217 is offline
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Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

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What hundreds of millions? Are you talking about taxpayers?

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I believe he was also talking about consumers suffering from artificially inflated prices, which hurt poor people dramatically more than rich people, obviously.
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  #40  
Old 11-15-2007, 06:18 PM
Money2Burn Money2Burn is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Florida, imo
Posts: 943
Default Re: 286 billion Farm Aid Bill for 2008

[ QUOTE ]
Sure there are some traditions that shouldnt be preserved solely for the sake of preserving them. But I think that the large number of communities that revolve around farming would benefit as a whole.


[/ QUOTE ]

How would these commmunities be hurt?
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