Fold here? (razz)

[ceegee]

Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___???

[RustyBrooks]

I think I'd usually raise or fold here. Calling isn't really an option because I would NEVER flat-call here with a 4-card 7 or even a 4-card 8, so for me to just call 4th says a lot of an observant opponent about my hand.

Whether I fold or raise depends an awful lot about what I know about Seat 1. Unfortunately it's hard to define his range... a lot of the times I'll just call in last position if I know it's going to be heads up (well, I don't expect the Q to call) if I think I can make my opponent make a bad call in a smaller pot on 4th and/or 5th. However, if I thought you were stealing I'd usually raise any decent hand here.

It's not a great spot to steal because although you're only 2 off the bringin, they are both wheel cards. Not to say I never steal here, I do.

[Brocktoon]

Looks like an easy fold at that level. You're not going to get him off his hand and he's almost never bluffing.

You took a shot on 3rd and it didn't work, abort.

[2461Badugi]

I would peel here if I had (27)A7 or (27)AK, so I see no reason not to with (K2)A7.

[RustyBrooks]

I did the numbers and you're not as badly off as I originally thought. Maybe something like 25% equity, 3 way, which isn't awful. Might be OK to call and evaluate the next street. I think I'd still lean towards raising, not so much because anyone will fold now but if Seat 1 is paired he'll probably fold 5th if he doesn't catch well.

[ChipsAhoya]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a great spot to steal because although you're only 2 off the bringin, they are both wheel cards. Not to say I never steal here, I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? This is an automatic steal... You're risking one SB to win 1.4 says the pot odds and with two lows behind you there's only approximately a 44% chance one or more of them have 8s...

-ChipsAhoya

[RustyBrooks]

How automatic of a steal it is depends on how likely the people are to call. I've been at tables where stealing is nearly impossible, and others where I can steal with 4 low cards to go. If they won't fold 9xx or Txx do you still want to try to steal? (where xx are two lowish cards) How about if they won't fold 4th, and won't fold 5th unless they hit pretty bad? (And what are the odds they'll have T- 8- 8-? A lot higher...)

That said, even at a table where steals are hard I probably steal here pretty often.

[Andy B]

Aren't third and fourth both easy folds?

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___???


[/ QUOTE ]
This is a standard steal; I can't imagine not completing here. Your problem was the dumass who didn't raise when he called from Seat 1 to get the bring-in out. If it were me, I'd at least call and see the next card. I might raise depending on how the others have been playing.

[Mathew82]

The problem I find when I try and steal at a low limit table with this play is that the player that I am stealing through tends to call with such a wide range that it reduces the reason for the play. Getting the bring in to fold is in no way a certainty either.

That being said, if you only wait around for good hands it becomes far too obvious. Even the most inept player generally knows that your playing tight and not trying to steal. Really stealing antes 'through players' on most low limit tables isn't really something that a player should get too caught up with. If you only stole from the total steal position, some players I see would actually be better off.

So basically you might want to tighten your range to an extent that you will do it with enough frequency where your steal will be taken seriously and still tempt a call by the loose players with their '2 card hands'. On a 25/50c table you might be better only raising with a nine with 2 cards under a 6 (assuming the nine isn't exposed of course) or better and perhaps only loosen up to any two cards under 6 if this player has seen that I've not attempted stealing through them a few times (unless they are multitabling - in which case, they probably aren't paying attention). Of course it all depends on the player you wish to go through. But it seems to me that too many people are far too liberal with their steal attempts and their calls to probable steals too. If they are going to consistently call you - then you must be ready to play the hand and not just hope to outflop them on fourth street.

Now to the hand....

This 'could' be ok on third if the people you are stealing through won't call you with what is essentially a 'stealing hand'. So if you made that play in the first place then you then have to assume that he is probably good and you fold on fourth.